Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 70 · 3 months ago

Balancing Digital with Human Touchpoints to Excel in Consumer Lending

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Digital strategies are not just for deepening relationships with your customers. The digital experience is also a way to refine and improve processes while also building community and trust.

Today’s guests Mary Kate Loftus, Executive Vice President, Director of Digital Banking, and Tim Frederick, /EVP, Head of Mortgage Originations at M&T, know that digital touch doesn’t replace a human connection with a customer, but it can help define it.

Join us as we discuss:

  • The difference between digitization and going digital to leverage platforms and transform processes
  • Government-led innovation in the mortgage space
  • The role trust plays in capturing and keeping customers engaging digitally
  • The characteristics that separate the winners from the losers in the future of consumer lending

You're listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation and more. Let's get into the show. Mary Kayt and Tim, thanks so much for joining me today and making the time. I really appreciate it. Hi, Jeff, great to be here. Hey, Jeff, U S America, I'll throw this out to you. I start this my podcast with all my guests with this question. Um, and I was recently at a conference and every person I talked to describe themselves as an accidental banker, because I think not many of us grow up with the vision of becoming of becoming bankers. So tell me a little bit about you know, how you got into the industry and how you ended up in the position you're in today. Absolutely, Um. So, Jeff Solo, it's nice to be here today and I'm really excited for conversation. Um, I am I I suppose, like most bankers, I am an accidental banker, although I can't be too much of an accidental banker, because I did go to business school and that was a common place for many people, as right as you're leaving, to come into so um. So I've actually spent my entire career in banking, which is Um Um. When I look back now I'm like, oh my gosh, it's twenty five years and most of a bank experience. And as I came into it, you know, I've I've actually quite fallen in love with the fact that, you know, it's all about people achieve their financial goals and dreams. I think it's really important work, even as it continues to evolve, which I think we'll be talking about today. Yeah, not tim did you grow up wanting to be a banker or is this an accidental profession for you as well? Accidental for sure. I actually started as a customer service wrap at a small bank in Colorado and quickly found the mortgage side of the business and have spent the last twenty three years originating mortgages in various aspects. So I'm reading a book on mortgage...

...originations in the subprime crisis. You know, I'm gonna have some very point of questions for you later today. I've got lots of information coming at me. Um America, I wanted to start with a question for you because, you know, we kind of met through your work with the C B A and the in the digital channel's committee, and maybe digital transformation is probably the most common topic of conversation when I talked to banks and credit unions today. We have to do something. What are we what do we do? How do we prioritize? What are the I'm curious either the key focus areas you hear on, what people are trying to achieve, or like, what are the key things that are working on towards that, because it's such an a morphous topic in certain ways and I'm curious how you see it playing out in practical terms. Yeah, I mean, and I think the work through the C B A is really important. So I'm super happy to share I just became the vice chair of our digital channels committee, which is really thank you and Um and but what that means is we there's the digital channels committee continue and now it's about so much because it's really a you know, people, when we defined digital, means a lot of different things to a lot of different so when you think about digital transformation, what that really means is transforming your business models. Of transforming is you transform how you think about digital coming into your customer's life. We have digitization, which means how do you figure out how to become more efficient, and if you're more efficient, then you are able to better meet customer needs and really create the experiences that they want. Now a lot of the topics that are emerging for for me and for many of that my counterparts across the industry, is Um you know, we we look at the customers. Digital digital is embedded in every part of a customer's life and that provides great things and awesome, you know, enhancements to your life and your ability to manage your money, but it also makes it hird in terms of fraud, financial crime and the like, the complexity. We're trying to make it really simple, but by nature, because it's changing and it's growing, it's becoming complex. So I think people are talking a lot about that. That's interesting. I'm curious. How do people have there's...

...this kind of interesting question in my mind about you know, I find some institutions are what I what I sometimes maybe derisively described as digitizing legacy processes versus really rethinking what's possible on how we think about a product or the process we implement, and I feel like that's like this really bad path to walk down because you end up not delivering what you really want. And I'm curious where you're seeing the conversations around this concept of like, is it a digital of my goal, or is digital a capability with which I need to rethink how I do things, what I do all my processes, because it's it's a very different mindset, I think, to say, how do I take x and digitize it, or how do I build an X Y Z product on top of digital capabilities? Absolutely, and I'm going to start off. I'd love to know, you know, how Tim thinks about that as well, from the mortgage focus. But, Um, you know, what really happens is you have you have to do both simultaneously. So there's some processes that you say the process itself isn't bad, but now there's better ways to do it, and that's where station comes in. You know, can we do something and and leverage robotics? Can we do something that's able to you know, the automy was manual and that is you have to do that. But at the same time there are processes that many banks have had for twenty plus years. That really the process has not changed, but the job to be done has changed and therefore we have to do almost is say, let's take a journey, let approach, let's think about the customer experience end to end, and you need groups of people that can set aside all of their legacy experience and all of their know how and say, all right, starting fresh, what would this be, and then figure out what that would be and then go back and say now, how might we be able to build in and Tim how do you think about that? Yeah, I agree. I think in the mortgage space a lot of the focus over the past ten, fifteen years has been on streamlining the customer application process. It's really just that getting getting them in the top of the funnel and and over the past,...

...you know, five or six years, and has certainly been helped by the pandemic, we've been leaning into data over documents and and playing catch up with the rest of the financial services industry and and Um tapping into third party resources to reduce the burden on on paper, on manual processing of work. That's really the opportunity in the mortgage spaces as UM modernizing that approach to I love that data over documents. That's I mean, I just went through a digital mortgage experience not too long ago and you know, the digital part was like just upload these forty five documents, many of which were documents that I had to get from the bank that I was applying for the mortgage from. So I went that did not you know, I was like it's digital, but to that point, like they were not going data over documents. They had just digitized the document collection process, which to me felt not that much. Bet means certainly better to do it to my computer, but it's not didn't seem like a real execution of what was possible. When I say hey, you one of my bank statements, you're my bank, like you shouldn't even have to ask, you should just know in process. So that's an interesting how you actually tie that together? I think it is a really interesting challenge and I think we learned a lot of that through customer journeys and understanding the same question. You're asking. Why. Why? Why do you need this? You should already have it. Um and and the availability of data sources now allow us to move that direction. I think Jeffrey you're getting. It is Um you know, when you think about the banks often and even like, even if it's not directly the bank, but we have in sight into like every touch point normally, of a customer's financial life. So what we're what we may see as like a step into digitization by doing the document upload, without a doubt, what we're really, I think, our focus, and like so many organizations focus, is to say, how do we now say this is everything we know will make it even easier for you, and not only that, but we're going to offer are up insights that help you...

...make the best decision like that. That, to me, is like the companies that are doing it best are doing that. That's where were you well till I want to ask you this because you talked to we were talking earlier and you talked about where innovation comes from in the mortgage space, which is a which is an interesting space because of these kind of particularly because of the G S C S, who end up Um kind of maybe driving, maybe limiting, depending on your perspective, what can be done from an innovative point of view because of the role they play in the kind of the implicit guarantees and the fact that they end up being the you know, the purchase of a lot of mortgages. How do you see innovation being driven in in the mortgage space? Is it being driven by government regulation, G S C S? Is it being driven despite them? How does that interplay really work? I think you nailed nailed it, Jeff. The agencies are really the innovators of the mortgage space right Um. The vast majority of production is destined to one of the G S C S, or Ginny May, and they really have historically been the innovators. With desktop underwriter, with M paisel valuations, Um, with with income and Employment Verification automations. It's really Um them driving those transformations for the entire industry and it's up to the banks and mortgage lenders to adopt that technology. I think that's that. That's really where it's coming from. That's I don't know, maybe maybe I'm an old technology guy, but whenever you tell me the government's responsible for innovation, I get I get a little bit nervous about how fast it will come in this space, at the scale we operate at. They're actually pretty good at it. That's that's good to hear. I like that. We'll see if I might have to check that assessment with others and see if they all agree Um. Let me throw this question out because, Marky, you were talking about kind of seeing all the touch points and offering really useful financial advice and insight for customers, and one of the interesting things I learned when I first came into this industry was how central the concept of the checking account is to the concept of a...

...customer to a bank. Really a customer is someone who has their primary depository relationship with me, and people who get a mortgage but not a check account or like they're kind of customers, but really you view that as a sticky relationship, as being the depository account in the digital world. Is that still true in the in the branchles world, where I'm not coming in to make deposits and make withdrawals? Do does this? Does a checking account poll still play that kind of central role in the relationship I have with an institution? I think that's going on here. So you've got without a doubt, the legacy view of Um is in many financial institutions and it's driven primarily from how the how our systems are set up to how we track, measure and report and that's a lot of times the origination of the of the checking account being the primary way to measure Um, it's really because of the how the data is flowing within the organization. However, that being said, Um, what we have an M and T and like and probably the most forward thinking organizations is that, Um, we have invested over the last few years to say, how do we look at a customer? And really what a customers is a customer that has somebody with a relationship with us, and it could be as young as fourteen that got their first checking account set up. It could be something you know, it could be somebody that stand alone mortgage, you know. Um, they have an installed, you know, a car loan, or they have other standalone products with us, well, accounts, etcetera. Um. So what you what you are what I believe is already happening is that shift away from saying the checking account customers the only way you measure this, because the reality is every touch point with a customer is a way to be able to meet their needs and be able to create value for them. Um, and that's where banks as you compete for is the is the community banking. Um, landscape of the United States continues to shift and consolidate, that becomes even more important because every time you have an opportunity for organic growth, for Building Trust, that's where a bank really needs to think about like okay, how can I meet this customers needs? So I think it's shifting quite a bit, but you're right that that has been the predominant way to to you it in the past well, and it drives these strange things...

...to them that often coming in your world, which is like now, I'll give you off your mortgage if you put twenty five bucks into it checking account. And I like really, I mean I'm just gonna take the twenty five bucks out in a month and like, I mean, I'll do it. But it's, you know, to me it's such an interesting thing that that focus on that singular product drove what I would describe is like I don't think you really developed a deeper relationships. I puts. I'm not saying you guys do that now, Tam, but I have friends who have had had experience. So it's interesting to think about how we move to a world where that's not where we think hey, I've got the mortgage. What how do I not add value to your life, be there in the moment Um, you know, give good advice and be able to position other proucts out something silly like, you know, I'll give you off putting twenty five bucks and checkingcount and hoping you come back and actually use it. Because of that, we actually, we actually don't do that, but we do ask. We asked, we do ask permission to introduce our customers to our our retail banking friends. They might talk about other Opperat unities. Well, I'm how you think about that in the nature of originations, because there's always this really interesting thing about you know, as that example, you're typically breaking the I came to you for a mortgage, I'd like to get the mortgage. Now you're making me stop that process to go open a checking account that I don't really want because we think somebody that bank wants it. And then there's a different version of that, which is I want to get you through the mortgage quickly and then try and say hey, we've helped you with one thing. How else can we be of service? How do you think about that transition between completing the thing the customer came to you for and trying to take that opportunity to build a broader relationship and understand more fully the picture of that person's financial life needs. Well, I think, I think that's it right. We're we're earning it first and then we're making the introduction and delivering what they asked for without any added friction to the process. Yeah, I mean I think that Tim, Tim and team have set up some really cool programs and partnerships recently that Um, and they're actually not even like banking related. They're about how do you help customer, whether it's with employment, whether it's with like how...

...you build your skills and and I feel like that, Um, we're tim saying, Hey, we like to build trust like beyond just you know, they're they're being in the pository relationship, like those are the things that really, I believe, can make a difference. Have you seen real engagement around those? I think it's really interesting is I'm not going to get the numbers right, but I'm seeing a number of surveys that particularly younger consumers don't have any institutions that they feel like they trust to give them unbiased financial career like the kind of advice on how to handle the important topics in life and they don't trust our financial institutions. Is what the survey says. Um and they're open to places. I'm curious, have you seen those kind of education and opportunities to engage in an advisory roles? I feel like that's a there's a real opportunity to to win trust and earn business, but to really help your clients in that space and I'm curious how those things are working for you. I mean what we've seen and we um just was a study. We went through um M and t participates in bins and MPs prism and they looked what customers what's the drivers for like customers, you know, deepening in relationship, et Cetera, and what they're finding and what they shared with us is that Um, even for younger Um consumers, there it's really self service. It's digitally driven Um and we've seen the flip from branch being like the closest like driver of why you want to open a relationship to now it's about the digital experiences, now the tap driver. However, when you look at MPs, it is about relationship and community, and so I think that there's this interplay like that is people become Um maybe in particularly post pandemic, they think more deeply about like what really matters to them, or for their behavior changes a bit where they say I would like to know that I can talk to somebody, I would like to occasionally talk to somebody for really big life decisions. Um, we definitely see that for basic transactions, I mean customers really want to handle it themselves, but for the more complex they want to talk still. Yeah, do you see any changes and how people are this kind of...

...concept of what's digital what's human? I think it's a really interesting one. Into me, your business is right at the edge of one of the big life decisions, which is not just getting a mortgage but ultimately, like I'm buying a house, which is probably the most valuable asset I I have or will have. It's a pretty remember when I bought my first piece of property. I was I was really freaking nervous carrying around my deposit check and, you know, my my down payment in my pocket. I was like freaked out because it was more money that ever held my hands in my life. Um, how do you think about that, kind of being there for that customer in that moment to make that advice and how you blend that with, hopefully a relatively frictionless and you know, whenever I'm in the PROSCT, you gotta Call Your your mortgage officer to do this. Like I don't want to call anybody. Want to like I want to do the thing, but then sometimes I want to understand what's a fifteen year and and this, what's this arm thing and this io arm thing, and I don't I don't understand why. Like, help me understand what I'm kind of choices I'm making here and what is a good one? They're very different things and I'm curious how you think about balancing that helpful advice first, this frictionless process balance. Well, I think you're right. It's a it's a it's a big transaction. Homeownership is a is a critical part of everybody's Um life. If they're if they're choosing to go that route, I think making it available to them. You know, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of products that are applicable to different people in different ways, and so being that advisor to help them navigate. You know, if you want a thirty year fixed and you've done this one or two or three times, it's easy to to want to do it and and without yeah, Um, but but especially the younger generation you mentioned before, you know, they really do want that advice and as rates change and inventory shrink and it becomes more and more competitive, it's it's really hard to buy a house right now California. You don't have to tell me it's it's really hard. So so that that that advisory aspect of it is is critical. Very cool. Okay, when you and I first spoke a...

...while back, we've talked about this idea of open finance and kind of API enabled business models and not just shifting the products but in some ways the business models that are open and available to banks and how you can think in innovative ways about that. I'd love for you to kind of dive into that little bits. I thought it was a really interesting topic area. Yeah, I mean I think that when you look at Um this, and this is probably when we talk about digital transformation, really what it talks about is how, how, or what I'm thinking about is how do you enable new business models based upon the technology and the needs of customers? So there's there's many different ways you could you could take an approach to this like one could be if you have a customer like say you have a large, large commercial customer that has in need and your organization has the ability to say we can build custom Apis for you to enable faster money movement real time. That then is able to allow your business to grow, allow you to be able to to uh, to be able to get your funds faster. That that provides a, you know, service that you can monetize. That then Um and look at can. You can look at that Um, when you look at how we use Um, how you're able to partner with other organizations and and uh and financial institutions to bring a customer's whole financial life together to then inform what their options truly are and then help them make better decisions. Um. We talk a lot about like overdraft protection and how we help customers by reducing fees, but I think that that that's important, but that miss is part of the opportunity, which is technology today is actually enabling something that we're not even designing for. Often, um financial institutions that are thinking ahead and looking at customer needs and then looking at the capabilities that are there now will be the ones that, most importantly, can can help, can can make a difference in help customers. Yeah, I think that's we always look at that here, like what kind of products can we enable based on digital technologies that meet customers? Maybe that weren't possible or maybe we're possible but not profitable before because, you know, a small dellowlenes of great apples and like I just can't make...

...enough money on isn't a small dollar on a Susan Underwriter looks the file. You lost money, like you just can't. You can't afford those manual processes and serve that customers need. But in the digital world that assumption kind of goes away and you have a chance to rethink what's possible and how maybe I can serve those customers needs in a new way. Yeah, and where you have I was out on branch visits last week and and that's a cool thing to need to remember. Like right, even people that are leaders like you know, Tim and I and digital and product you still get out talk to customers, talk to customer facing people and Um and one of the things I heard, we were talking about it was for both the home equity and and uh, business banking applications. You know, we have to always have that balance between automating, providing fast answers and and really like making an efficient process with understanding the customers full financial picture all the qualitative insight that might go into that. So I think with especially when you're talking when there when there is scale, you might have an opportunity to to look at that process differently than you have at the past and that may be a sweet spot to better meet the needs of people who are looking for for assistance. MHM, absolutely all right. Is there anything I should have asked you, guys, that I didn't ask you guys? I feel like this is this I mean we're coming up on the time that we have a lot and it feels like it's gone by really fast. I'm worried I missed something that we're supposed to talk about or should have covered. I mean, look, Um, I think let's see. I mean I think this is a I mean it's a great conversation. I Um, Um, I mean, nothing is nothing is coming to mind, but I don't know, I got a few closing questions for it. If it tuns out you had something that came up. But well, here's my my last question before I get my my my typical closing through, which is kind of what do you think really separates winners from losers over the next couple of years? Or maybe losers is a strong word, but those who really excel in this kind of moment of transition? Is it kind of strategic priorities, product innovation? Is it bare bones execution on what we all know we need to do? Um like, how do you think about where? You know, if I'm out here another exact running a bank, what...

...how do I think about what's really the key things that are going to differentiate the people who are taking this moment of opportunity and grasping it and coming out stronger on the other side, versus those that are struggling more? I'll jump in first him and I look forward to hearing what you were you're thinking about, but for me it's it's really about. It's the it's the organizations that are listening to their customers. They're not saying, all right, based on bacroeconomic environment, we want to make some you know, we want to we want to adjust our strategy to fit the economic environment. I think that the organizations that are saying we're gonna listen to customers, we're gonna look for the UNNET met needs. We're gonna figure out where, where you have a majority of the industry going, where that opportunity lies, and executing it really well, like those will be the winners. Um and to enable that. It's all about people. So right now we have an incredible you know, they talk about the war for talent. The job market is super hot. You need to be able to have um in a environment and a culture that people want to come to work at, they feel passionate about the purpose that you're doing, and then be able to be, you know, competitive and how you how you keep them there, because people are how you're going to be able to do that. You need really smart, highly motivated people. If you do that, you will be able to execute. Damn your thoughts. I agree with Mary Kate. I think that that outside in perspective and and then having the discipline to stay the course when you when you uncover those customer Um needs and and fight through resistance from legacy business processes and practices. That's that's really you know, the execution aspect of it. That that's going to make a big difference. Yeah, it reminds me of something we say in silicon valid, which is too often we ship our org chart, like our our internal structures, dictate what we end up building for our customer, as opposed to that outside in view. You're talking about saying, Hey, what does the customer need, and let's like design for that, as opposed to know the path, at least resistant internally. Like this word once. Will...

...just, you know, let it. Let the ORG chart ultimately dictate what, what gets determined and what gets built, which is usually not a not a great success in terms of the best customer experiences. A right, I got my final three questions for you, so we'll just go back and we'll we'll start with Mary Kay the first one, and ten the second one. We'll go back and forth this way. Um, but number one, my favorite one, is what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gotten? The best piece of career advice I've ever gotten is too really Um. It's to take the risks and to throw and to throw any, Um, you know, any anything that's holding you back, set it aside and you go. Um, you know, I had a person I worked for, UM, and I'll send her the link after so she knows her who she is. and Um, but she, but she would say she's like. She's like Mary Kate, like you. Be You, like you are, you are unique and you are somebody that brings thing different in your leadership style. Like what you can't do, ever, is be able to try to try to match. You have to you have to play to your strengths, put yourself in the environment, in the context upon which you actually can make the difference that you want. Um, and part of it is it's taken the risk. It's being fearless and just going. I love that. I've always felt, when I've taken risks of my career that like they felt riskier on the front side than they did on the back, like they don't like a huge risk in the back you went. Well, I was, I so nervous about doing that. Doesn't doesn't seem like as big a risk now as it did in that moment. So I think it's always good to give them mind. It's good to take the risk. It's probably not as risky as you think in the moment when you're taking it. That's the moment of yeah, I'm stealing it from you, I'm just like reparaphristic town. You're our best career advice. Don't be the smartest person in the room. Right, surround yourself with with really smart people that will challenge you and uh and and drive you to be better. That's right. I always tell my kids, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. Yeah, right, I don't room. I don't know room. All right,...

...then we're going point. That's why I invited him to make sure he was here today. I just wanted to do a podcast because I'm never the smartest person in the room. It's great. I learned from all the people who come and it's I think it's fabulous. Alright, Tim question to your up first. This time we're gonna go back and forth. What's the best advice you've gotten about the consumer banking or consumer lending space? And I'M gonna I know you said your mortgage not consumer lending, but, as I pointed out, mortgages are loans to consumers. I consider that consumer lending. That's right, they are. Listen to customer complaints. I, you know, talk about fast, cheap, easy way to to uncover opportunities and identify friction points. Um, so. So I spent a lot of time pouring through any and every complaint I can get listen to customer complaints. That you're the first person to give me that piece of advice. I love that, Mary Kate, what you got for me. I believe it's Um. When we when we look at the Um, it's it's always goes back to banking as a person to person. No matter what. Like you can, we can and, and this is coming from somebody who lives in breathes digital like. At the end of the day, I really do believe and whether you Um, you make a person feel like they are unique and you connect with them digitally, it's always about the emotion, the relationship, how somebody feels. That's what always drives their their behavior and um and their trust with the organization in your company. So so one follow up for you on that, because I love this point and I feel like it's so easy, particularly in financial services, particularly as you get into a layer two above the day to day customer facing, to get like you see the numbers and it's like a big spreadsheet and if I, if I tweaked this number, I can tweak this number and I can increase our margins and our r o e and like, and you can lose the sense of the people behind the numbers and how do you help the team not have that experience? How do you keep them connected with the people on the emotions? I feel like it's so easy to lose and you've got to find really practical ways to like keep that connection. How do you do that? It's it's storytelling. It's talking to people in stories. So, like Um Tim mentioned, you know, looking at customer complaints,...

...like we'll go in, we have we use qual tricks. Every person has access to it. We've we we made it available to everyone. So imagine a product owner, a product manager, you know, you know, I'll you get to go, you can click and you drill down and then and then to bring the life to the story, it's get out, get out and go talk to people. So it's like go, go, visit the branch, go talk to you know, people who are customers. Say, how did you feel? You don't bank with us. Why don't you bank with us? Well, something happened twenty years ago. Tell me that story and then and then, as leaders, our job is to tell those stories and so just go share the stories. Be That and then helps people think about it. Um You know, from a from a different vantage point, all right, I like it. My last question Markay. Well, are you first? We've Just Ping ponging in here. What's one bold prediction for the future? But, all right, I believe it's bold. You might say, Jeff, it's not bold enough, but I have a twelve year old daughter and and I believe, like they, this is going to be. This next generation is going to Um transform our culture in our country in a way that we can't even like kind of imagine it. I believe that it will be on the whole, although, especially like recent news that's been in the news, there's a lot of dark things that have happened. I believe that on the whole we will Um. This next group will be taking us to a point where it's about purpose, it's about community, it's about how do you how do you help the environment? How do you really like make a true difference, and that will drive what happens in our industry overall. I don't know how bold and I think it's. I think it's bold. I like, I mean the real bolding. We're telling you how, but I have a ten year old and a thirteen year old boy and yeah, I agree. Like there, their experiences are different and it's hard to be hard for us to see the world through their eyes, but I think they are energized and engaged in a way that it is new and interesting and they're gonna I mean, they're I love that. What's that line from Hamilton's? You know, we'll give the world to you and you'll blow us...

...all the way. I mean, I think that's why I do feel that way about the next generation. They're going to do things that we haven't yet anticipated or scene and I look forward to watching it. When you think about with them, like what's what's emerging? E S. You talked about E S G for every organization, right. You look at Um Um, when you like the old rules, you think about, you know, a head of support, Middle Office, contact center, with what really what we're talking about is how do you prepare the next Um, the future of how the workforce will transform? What skills are needed like Um, digital ethics, like data privacy, like there. There's such emerging topics that will be dominant five years from now that aren't dominant today. Um, and this is the next we have because we have to serve this next group of customers that really are are going to be our primary customers and, you know, ten years or less, I think the last thing we have is for Tim to give us his bold predictions going you've already predicted governments as innovators in the in the mortgage sector. So I appreciate that. That's, you know, to some feels like a pretty bold prediction in and of itself. Um, but tim you've got a bold prediction for us to close this out here. That is pretty bold. Um, I predict that that people aren't going anywhere, that that, despite advances in in the digital space. You know, people are gonna need advisors, they're gonna need, Um, someone to go to to think through problems and Um, you know, in ten years we're still going to be doing that. I agree and I you know, the more I hear from banks and more I hear that the digital is getting rid of Mary get to your point, to the boring, the process stuff, and we're spending more time actually with the advice and the questions and how do I make good choices in a way that's very positive to, I think, both the employee experience, because it's more fun thing to do, it's a more engaging thing to do than processing, and more value add to the customer in a way that I think is really powerful. So I like it as a bold prediction. will in it there, Tim Mary Kay. Thank you, guys both for joining me today. I really appreciate it's a great conversation. Thanks, Jeff. Upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan...

...portfolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. UPSTARTS AI lending platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models. With fraud rates near zero, up starts all digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto learning programs or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Upstart offers an end to end solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile, with all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing and servicing. It's all possible with upstart in your quarter. Learn more about finding new borrowers enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting upstart dot com slash forward dash banks. That's upstart dot com slash forward dash banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never missed an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player using apple podcasts. Leave us a quick rating by capping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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