Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 69 · 4 months ago

Boosting Results for Credit Unions with Holistic Digital Marketing

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Digital advertising is a given for any business in the world today, but how can credit unions connect the right products to their existing members and grow their member base?

By increasing and honing their digital engagement tactics.

Today’s guest Michael Hostetler, VP of Marketing at Crane Credit Union, shares how his credit union leverages data to thoughtfully market relevant products to members.

Join us as we discuss:

  • Using an entrepreneurial mindset to increase credit union member growth and engagement
  • Educating members about product offerings
  • Improving the new member and new loan onboarding process
  • Digital marketing strategies and channels that integrate the marketing and user experience

You're listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation and more. Let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders and lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Michael Hostetler, the VP of marketing at Crane Credit Union. We have really been excited to have some people want to talk about marketing, about not just selling through the branches, but but marketing digital channels and how they're reaching customers in new ways. Michael really provided that in spades. We talked about how they're identifying off US loans and using those to uh, you know, really target outreach to customers who should be working with the credit union in more ways. Um, some digital marketing strategies, channels, what they've learned about how to make does work, and a really interesting concept to me, which is integrating the marketing experience with the user experience and kind of thinking of that in a holistic way to drive the best results. It's really interesting conversation a lot of great insights, so please enjoy this conversation with Michael. Michael, thanks so much for making the time to join us on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. Ain't glad to be here. Good afternoon, uh so, I'm looking forward this conversation. We're gonna give into some some marketing topics, but I'd like to start all all of my podcasts with the same question. My guests, which is most of us, didn't grow up dreaming of being bankers and yet yet here we are. Um, tell me a little about how you got into the industry and what Your Path was the position you're in now. Yeah, so when I was in uh I went to Indiana University with the objective to be uh an accounting and finance major, until, like, I figured out it wasn't really that good at accounting. So ended up taking a path towards towards marketing, which was really...

...a better fit for me. And it was my uncle who was the vice president of I T at a credit union in Indianapolis and he got me my first internship at a credit union after my Sophomore Year of college, and that summer I worked in indirect lending uh all summer and then came back and actually did it over Christmas break as well, while people were taking time off for the holidays. So so I'd come in every day at eight and do car loan applications until five o'clock, and that was my entire summer that year. So that was my introduction to credit unions and financial services. And now I have been a full time employee in the industry since two thousand five so, uh, just past seventeen years. It's always hard. I look back and I feel like a newcomer to the industry and I look back and it's been more than a decade and I go out. I don't know when that I feel like I haven't been around that long. With, I think it financial services. It takes longer than most because there's a lot of people with a lot of tenure in the banks and credit unions. But I don't know if you feel like you're an industry insider or or a bit of a newcomer still learning the ropes. I feel like I still feel like I'm an in a newcomer. Until we we continue to hire people who are right out of college you know, and I realized just how all I really am. Yeah, I think sometimes it's hard to understand the perspective you have, like you always are looking at what you don't know, and I found that particularly in college. You when I have to be seeing I didn't feel like I've learned that much, and then the preshion one coming, you go oh my God, like you know they are you going so much and you go, I don't feel that way, but if you it feels that way to you. Okay, Um, so it's interesting. So I wanted to talk a little bit about you guys are kind of working on efforts to really market loans, which is interesting to me as a as a newcomer to the industry. Or ten years ago, I kind of assume that that was kind of a common activity, but it feels like a lot of loans aren't really marketed as much as they're sold or, frankly, for most traditional consumer products, they're dragged with...

...a purchase right, like nobody comes in for a mortgage so much as they come into it's dragged by the purchase of a house or the purchase of a car. Really drives alone. But you guys are actually out and marketing loans. Tell me a little bit about why and then we'll get into what you're doing and what you learned about it. Well, became a necessity, I mean with with the pandemic and the stimulus checks that we're going out, you know, we quickly found ourselves with many more deposits on hand that we were used to. Hear that story online. Yeah, so, you know, typically having a loan to share ratio or more, and now that being anywhere from the, you know, low to mid seventies was a big adjustment for our credit union and, you know, going back to talking about that experience in the industry and being somewhat familiar with, you know, the auto lending market, this is the first time in my career that I have had to really heavily market loans and try to seek them out, because they were just always there, at least in the form of auto loans. So it's been a little bit different and we've certainly become a little bit more aggressive in our approach and finding new ways to have those conversations with our members. But yeah, it's an ongoing challenge and, unfortunately, you know, I think it's still gonna last for a while a little while. It's probably an interesting muscle to build. So tell me what are the kinds of loans you focus you said, hey, let's Qu out and and try and find and market and actually seek these things out. Are there types of loans or types of consumers you focused on? And then I want to get into something like the how and the kind of details, but I'm curious like, at the strategic level, what was the focus area for for where you wanted to do that and why that was. Well, our hope was that with our staff that you know, they're gonna be having those conversations with members and reviewing the credit reports to see where there's refinance opportunities with loans and other institutions or if they have life goals that are coming up, such such as purchasing a new home, that we can be their trust and source for that type of product. So that's been a big objective for us. But we've also focused a lot more heavily on our first mortgage business and our commercial lending business, including hiring more...

...staff to handle just those areas. So we've been fortunate enough to grow very quickly with the acquisition of a couple of banks in the last couple of years and really a big part of those acquisitions has been adding to those teams. So we're starting to see more success in those areas and we're looking to grow uh those teams and start growing more of that of our landing portfolio those areas, as opposed to just focusing on auto loans, which have been our mainstay for a very long time, and talking about like marketing versus sales channels, like when you go ahead, let's go find loans. I think traditional banking approach has kind of been they get sold by the people in the branch right you come in and you have that person looking at the file or talking to the person, and I think of that as a very different thing than marketing. In some sense. There's definitely enablement and training and something like marketing, to me, is more of a one too many right, going out not in the context of a one to one conversation, but trying to figure out at a broader scale Al who am I going to reach out to with what message through what channels to drive that demand? To me, which is which is a quite different muscle and one that I had not understood was so underutilized, if you will, in many financial institutions. So so talk to me about, you know, your approach to that. Like we're there, channels you were trying to do, targeting you were using. How are you thinking about the kind of one too many side of the marketing of that process? Well, for us, a challenge and a lot of our communities that we've even had branches at for a long time, is that people didn't know all the products that we could offer them. You know, they may have thought of us as just a resource for car loans or, uh, checking account or something like that, and didn't think we were qualified to handle more sophisticated products like mortgages and home equity loans. So that's been something that we've tried to approach with a with our larger advertising approach that this is the place for loans period. You know, come and talk to us if you have a learning need and we're going to get you in the right product. Now, on a one to one level, we've had some success with mining our internal...

...data and finding out where people have their loans at other institutions be able to craft marketing pieces that reference that. You know, hey, you've got a carbon at chase. You know, have you thought about refinancing with us and if you do, here's an incentive to bring it over. And when we start making those offers a little bit more personal and relevant, it definitely increases the awareness and attention of the offer. Um. A big thing we've focused on recently is that new member and new loan onboarding process, where we're doing the same thing, where we're educating members on additional products that might be a good fit for them and doing that right after they've come and speak to us for the first time. So even if an employee hasn't been able to have those conversations with them, they're still gonna get some follow up marketing that they can act on, with links our online loan application and the contact information for their local branch manager that they can reach out to. That's really interesting. So I want to dive into both of those things. You said. One this idea of what I what I hear a lot of people in the industry referred to as off US loans, the realization that your customer has alone with somebody else that you wish they they've had with you, and the ability to bring that back into the family. How are you finding that? I mean, is that a is that a credit bureau targeting? Is that a depository activity? You're seeing payments go out or deposits coming like? How are you finding that and what are the challenges you find in tying together the data sources and figuring out how to target that outreach? I feel like that's Um sometimes that data does not live in a system that a marketing team has access to and the ability to leverage in that way. So I'm curious what data sources you're using and how you're thinking about and here's how we can find those. Off US loans and find the people who me also learning to people and go refinance your chase all alone with us. Here's a rate that's four points higher than that. You haven't chased that's not a good message. How do you think about making that work and what data sources are using to do it? Yeah, it's been primarily a c h data by seeing what loans we're coming...

...out of crane. Uh. So that that was the first place that we started and then, uh, we were able to craft enough of a personalized marketing message from there to to get people's attention. And you know, and some of the communities that we work with, you know, their their rural communities are pretty small. There there's still some mistrust there in larger institutions that I think we've been able to capitalize on. So I think we will have one to bring more business to the Credit Union, uh, if to consolidate their business or that they rather work from us on a customer service level. Um. But I think that, you know, the way that we've built empathy and trust with our members helps get helps bring those products over. So that's been a primary key for that, you know, and to us it has been a challenge getting that data out of our system, but the biggest challenge from a institution standpoint is really finding the right people, uh, that can help you get that data out of your system. So, Um, you know, getting that data of our course system wasn't really easy. We've, you know, had a data analyst on staff that that was their primary objective and it was a lot of work up front, but we started to see some success with marketing and going forward I think, you know, we're going to have to keep using the data as much as possible to to learn about our members, what their behavior is and do a better job at anticipating the needs rather than being reactive. Towards them. Yeah, there's two things I love about that story. which is one it's it's a thing I've been harping on recently with a lot of the conversation, which is the the investment in data infrastructure and the capability to bring it and use it in the right places at the right times is really important. Um. But I also love that you guys started, you know, starting small and then showing value. I think it is such a valuable way to build because you can say here's the data architecture system I'd like. That takes, you know, millions of dollars to build and but if you can go hey, we got one analyst, we've got a project to find off US loans. We're gonna do it, we're gonna, like see success in marketing, I think that changes. I'd be curious if this is your experience, the nature of the conversation about...

...the next project you want to do or the next data source you want to any because it goes hey, we've seen this thing work, we've seen aid of value. Now I get it, and that's a lot easier to build on that success than it is to try and like boil the ocean and try and solve all the problems up fund at once. Yeah, we know that. There's there's so much that you can you can target based on, you know, the days, on the information that you have available, and that's that's really the challenge. Where do you where do you focus on? What do you give most attention to? And, from, you know, a recipient standpoint, how can you make that marketing offer so that they're gonna actually pay attention to it? Well, if you're referencing some piece of information that they already know, uh, that's gonna make them feel a little bit more comfortable and ultimately we'd like to be able to use that information to make even an even more specific offer to them with with that inforation that we have. So, Hey, lower your payment from four fifty to three hundred, you know, by refinancing with us. You know, Click here, and it's just that easy. Um, you know, something like that's always the objective, but how to get there is is a difficult part. Ideas are their ideas are up here, but you know, the steps to get there? That's a that's where we uh, that's where we have to spend a lot of time. Yeah, and one of the things we always focus on, and I'm curious if you do this in a systematic way or not, is like what what's the thing I can do that's the least effort in the biggest learning about, like how much better does that offer convert? How can I figure that out without having to like solve all the problems to make it real for all my customers? Can I go find a way to learn how valuable that is so I can quantify to the business why we should make the investment in the infrastructure we need to be able to make that kind of offer. Is always that speed to learn and kind of like we're always how do we reduce what we're trying to do down to the smallest thing that gives us the biggest chunk of the learnings. We need to figure out what the next next piece of the puzzle is. The next thing we gotta do is to to drive value. Yeah, part of my experience and credit unions, I had the opportunity to be a part of the filing research institutes. I three group Um for a number of years now. But what that group really taught us...

...was, you know how to have an entrepreneurial mindset when approaching you know issues that your credit union is facing and we spent some time in Kansas with uh, with a gentleman who kind of took us through that innovation process, and one of the things that he said that's really stuck with me is that it's really important to fail fast and fail cheap, and we go into that with Uh. We approach a lot of projects with that mindset that well, we have an idea, but we it's inevitable that something's not going to work out exactly how we planned it, but as long as it doesn't cost us a lot of money. Uh you kind of generated opportunity costs there where you can take a shot at something. And I'm also fortunate enough to work with a team that allows us that type of freedom, that you know, we're allowed to screw up every now and then. If we if we learn from our mistakes, well, that's I've always tried to help people reframe. Like if you learn what you wanted to learn, even if you didn't get the business objectives, I don't think of that as a failure. If I if I said Hey, we missed the mark, but we figured out where and I can recalibrate and I can hit the mark next time. Then that's, you know, maybe not a business success, but it's not a failure in my sense, because my we actually have our team often to find their business objectives and their learning objectives for a project and if we missed the business objectives but we achieve the learning objectives, then then we've done something valuable for the business, even though we didn't drive the growth we wanted or, get that, the applications one, or whatever it might be, and I think that's it's important mindset. You can't, I don't want to think of his failure right like I wanna tell Somebo you failed, you didn't you? You learned what you set out to learn. You learned that your hypothesis was wrong, right, but hopefully we learned some things along the way and the next time will be better informed and make up to make a better choice. And that's you know, I want that to be celebrated, to be encouraged, and that means, I think failure is a tough word to assign to it if you want, if you want to have that mentality. Well, in most cases you're going to generate more business, but it's very unlikely you're gonna lose business through that course of action. So, yeah, when we were trying to use this processes to get more loans, we figured if we got at least one loan out of it that it was probably beneficial. But we were gonna...

...have anyone running away from the institution because of this targeted for that I got. Yeah, so I want to die diging. The other thing you said, which is this kind of like new member, new loan quickly, how did you think about how you do? I always worry about adding friction into the onboarding process. How long do I need to I don't want to like stop you getting a deposit account or stop you getting alone, to say hey, before you finish alone, go get this checking account over here with us too, and like now I've like maybe lost both. Supposed to get a two pocts. I might get none now. Added friction. How did you think about the best way to integrate, you know, bringing a new member in and then getting them to look at multiple products at once, without introducing the kind of friction that can cause drop off on the thing that came to you for in the first place? What we approach it is that, you know, we're we're talking about relationship with the member. We're not trying to approach it as a sales opportunity. So there's some timing considerations in there where there's a little bit of leeway between the first product that they get and what we feel the next best product for them to take on with the institution. So in lending, a lot of times that's a that's a credit card. You know, that's the next offer we'll hit them with. That's pretty easy to move. It's something everyone has in their wallet and it's a pretty uh, it's it's not much commitment to change a credit card over to another institution. Now when you're talking about things like a checking account, where you know you're talking managing someone's every day financial business, that comes a little bit longer in the sales cycle. Um, but it's still fairly condensed. You know, those are real moments of truth when members are opening new products, where they're actually considering making those changes. So we think it's a pretty finite window there too to make a sale opportunity happen, uh, just when they're in the process of doing all that work already. Um. And then we've got some parameters set up that, you know, over the course of the member relationship we're going to reach out, you know, every three to six months on certain products that they're showing up, that they're good fit for, more or less just remind them that, hey, you know, we're here,...

...we've got this product for you. Other members like you have it Um, do it online application to see what takes and we're able to market those types of things for a very, very low number and makes it the R O I and it just fantastic. Great. Now I have have been something a little different. We we kind of touched on it, but it's uh, you've get have done some work around digital advertising and I think that's an area where a lot of people are are looking but there's a lot of lessons to be learned challenges. So I'm curious kind of what your experience has been, Um, what's working what's not for you in that space, because I feel like it's a it's a newer space and most of the institutions I talked to her saying, Hey, we know we got to be there, we don't know what we don't know and we're trying to figure it out along the way. And you guys have kind of been been playing this for a while. What do you what are you doing? In that space and what's working well for you. Well, when I started to crane uh seven years ago, that was our biggest issue is that we just didn't have enough engagement with our existing members and the communities we served. So, you know, we might have an autolown special here and there and we might do a radio ad or a newspaper ad, but that was really like it that. So we approached digital advertising with more of a continuous engagement based on the Credit Union's goal at the time. So, you know, a lot of times we'll be doing especially right now we're doing a lot of lending advertising, Um. But you know, as that situation improves, you'll suice see us doing things that are more brand oriented. We're always trying to get checking accounts, of course, and move people over here. Um. Now, from our experience it goes back to, you know, having a team behind us that really lets us run with, you know, the ideas that we have. So we really jumped in head first. Um, our biggest motivators that we had a lot of locations that we've really spread far apart. So digital was the easiest and most efficient way to reach as many people as possible for us and we could also attract the results. The reason for our success that has been working with outside part is who understand it and from an institution standpoint, admitting that we...

...didn't know exactly what we wanted to do, but we had objectives in mind and just asking a lot of questions about what's the best way to get there. So we've learned a lot about digital advertising, search engine marketing, uh, search engine optimization and employing tactics that we definitely worked doing ten years ago and with the growth of the Credit Union Um that work, along with our acquisitions, has spurred a lot of growth in the past seven years. That's that's awesome. How do you think about one of the questions that I was trying to say? You conduct this one if you like, but one of the things I find hardest in digital advertising is this sense of like multi touch and the idea like, how do I measure the quality of a campaign when likely I'm through? You know, if I'm in facebook and Google, we see oftentimes people see two, three, four or five of our pieces and then they convert and you go, okay, which of those was valuable? Was it the last one they saw that they clicked on right before they converted to a product or a process. Um, how do I value the different times that I'm reaching a person? Have you guys done any work in that front? How you think about, you know, piecing together, not just because like facebook's I think great, and Google is great. If it's like click convert measure. You know a number of clicks, how much I paid, number of conversions, how much were like it's great, but then you've got this world like it's not that simple, Um, and you're trying to piece together what the value of all the activities are that you may be interacting with the customer and one who maybe see something on Facebook, doesn't click it but then comes into the branch and and and ask for something to go ahead. Do I do I credit facebook for that or not? If you guys thought about how you do that or done anything interesting and how your projects it's like it's like a really hard problem. I think even for the most sophisticated marketers, I know this is a bit of an unsolved problem, to be frank, at least a challenge for them. Well, you know. To to that end, I think it's more an issue of, you know, how much credit do you want to take for it? So. So we use the word influence quite a bit. So, Um, the direct marketing to our existing members as is easy to track or at least you know,...

...put a number out there where, hey, this member got this piece, uh, specifically to them for this product, and they opened it within ninety days. Let's call that a conversion. But I have told our team that it's unfair to say that that's the exact reason why they opened the product. Um, because there are a number of factors in play. Um, you know, it's you know, maybe we just hit them at the right time, but the situation they're in. Um, maybe someone, when they the last time they had their credit report reviewed, brought it up and it Spurs Oh yeah, I remember, I talked about that with with Kevin six months ago. Um, it's always a number of factors that go into a purchasing decision and that's how we approach everything and that's how we we uh, we talked to our board about the effective us of our advertising. We're gonna try and have a consistent message across as many platforms as makes sense. But that message is going to be consistent, especially if it's individual offer. So one example of that is we have personalized offers in our online banking and mobile APP ads. How we can remarket too. And again we can't tell you which ad uh definitely influenced your sale, but we know that we use multiple tactics to get there and I think it's just how we how our human minds operate. We can't nail down why we're there, but somehow we got there. Yeah, it's like crying a new restaurant. You know, how did I? You know, why did I pick this one? Did I hear about it from a friend and I see an ad? Uh? Did I hear about a friend and I saw an ad for it and now I'm gonna go make a reservation. Uh. It's tough to nail down and usually that's maybe that's marketers use, but I believe that that it just takes. It takes a lot of different things to get someone to move, especially with a big purchasing decision, mortgages and houses. Those are big decisions for consumers. They don't make those on a whim. Yeah, there's no singular touch point that that drives that decision. Alright, one last area I wanted to ask you about is I kind of love this Um intersection where marketing kind of gets involved...

...in discussions about the user experience and how we you know, I think that there's kind of this kind of very separated version of like marketing gets people there and then the some product team manages the thing after the fact and there's like this clean handoff, which I think is just not real. And how the world works and how, you know, we influence conversions and I think you guys are doing some interesting work and how you get involved in what the actual Ux Post, just somebody showing up at the site or in the branches. Would love to hear what you're doing in your experience because I think it's it's idea of integrating those those disciplines and teams is really interesting in terms of driving a better outcome and better user experience. Yeah, I've always had like a really good relationship with R I t team here at Crane and other institutions I've worked at. So I've been um you know, whether intentionally or not, I've always been involved in some of the e commerce projects and I've always been able to, you know, take those things pretty easily. So I've always had I had a voice at the table, but it's very important, um you know, one of the things that we're looking at now with our website is, you know, through analytics we can track that we're getting a lot of new visitors and we're getting more traffic that we um than before with our advertising and certainly our increases in advertising, but it's not necessarily translating into new members. Well, you know why is that? Are they not finding the link? Is it an issue with the application? You know, that's where those those teams start to collaborate together and see, okay, what are these issues that are that are happening right now? And and you have to work together. It's it's it's really important and your team has to work well together to make that happen. Um, we don't believe in silos. At Crane were a very open group. Um, we all are very Um. We work together very well and have good opinions to share and we just want to work in the end for our members and for us, because that makes things a lot easier for everyone. That makes code to work every day a lot easier when you all get along. And Uh, and where's reous improvement.

So if the marketing can get you to the to the website and get you there but it doesn't do anything after that point, then the marketing just doesn't really work, does it? Yeah, no, I mean ultimately you've got to measure. I think thinking of it as like my job is going to the website, is your job to finish the job. Like you just can't ultimately drive success that way and those things are not as independent as we might you know, can draw them on a nice float chart and have a separation at the Arrow but I don't think that's how the user's mind actually works in the end. The same thing applies to making sure that those relevant, those offers are as relevant to the member as possible. If we're sending out an offer for uh, for an honor one to someone who's not going to qualify uh, that's just gonna take our staff's time to go through that application. So Rosso very cognizant of that, of making sure that we're getting the right people in front of our staff and making their work as efficient as possible. And again some of that comes from experience and feedback from the staff that hey, you's not this credit card campaign and I'm turning down a lot of credit card applications. Maybe we could tighten that up next time. Oh, that's great. freedback and let's make that better and, Um, make it easier for everyone and then the marketing steps look better on top of that. I love it. Well, like I appreciate the conversation. I got three questions I ask everybody had been in this podcast. So I hope you're ready for let's do it. So the three questions are. Number One, what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gotten? Um, you know, I don't know where I picked it up from, you know, podcast or book or someone I was talking to, but uh, one thing I heard was that you should not walk into a room and assume that you're the dumbest one there, UM, which kind of translates to you know, maybe people aren't as smart as you think they are. Um. So I don't think that kind of translates to you know, make sure that you, uh, if you have an opinion, speak up. You know, the worst thing that people are gonna do is just ignore it. Um. But never think that you're weaker than someone else. Um. And that's something that I've kind of talked about with our young her employees. I come to the Credit Union like...

...you're here for a reason. We hired you. You've got something to share. We need to help you know. Don't be afraid to speak up, and that helps a lot. That helps a lot then, but I can't tell you where I picked it up points. I love that. And then the the correlaty that I've had, that I've given people. It's like, I think that the sometimes you've got this question in your head where like you don't understand something people are saying, and the number of times I've gone I'm sorry, I don't understand, and then in the end of that you think everybody else knows and you're the guy who just is like, I'm uninformed whatever. And then I get out of a meeting and like half the people go, I'm so glad you asked that question. I don't understand that. I go why? Why did? I felt like I was the only one, like I was behind and I felt bad and so often we just stay quiet when we don't understand because we just assume we're the only one. We don't want to show our ignorance. And I go well, maybe it's not that I'm ignorant and it's just that nobody understands that. Nobody's raising their hand. So sometimes being willing to ask the dumb question. Is My my equivalent to that where I said I just I don't understand, I'm gonna ask and you can think I'm dumb because I don't know, but like maybe it's uninformed or whatever, but I'm understand Um, and often I find the people not the only one. Usually not the only one. Um. Second Question. What's the best advice you've ever gotten about the consumer banking or consumer lending space? Um. I very early on, when I first started with credit unions, there was a CEO from another credit union that told me you should always be trying to get loans, always trying to get loans, no matter what your loan to share ratio is. You know, if it gets close to you still need to try and get those loans. Um. You know whether that's because you know someday, like you know, the situation we're nowther going to go away, or if that's the way that you're really helping people by extending that credit and making, you know, their life goals possible. But he told me like you should always be trying to get loans, no matter what. Um. So never never slowed down in that regard. And you know, that's been pretty easy to this point, but now we're in this challenging time. But I come back to that often. Uh, just stuck with me, for somewhere, always be trying to get loans. All right.

In my last question, what's one bold prediction for the future? Oh, I mean, it's so uncertain right now. You know, I think there are a lot of changes coming with people, with basically how people do uh quote unquote, banking. Um. You know, I think that you're gonna see some situations where, Um, the lending space definitely changes a certainly now with the you know, buy now, pay later, that becomes a lot more prevalent. I could see a lot of challenges with a traditional auto loan, Um. But I honestly think that we're going to look at home ownership a lot differently and which sure then, you know, probably either one of our generations looks at it. Um, owning a home just sucks, uh, you know, it's it's maintenance, it's it's a large amount of money. Right, and now the rates are high. Um, you know, if you get a thirty year more roach, you're not going to live in that house for thirty years. That's very rare. So I think that idea of home ownership is going to change a lot, uh, in our in our lifetime. Uh. And I would say the same thing about car ownership with right sharing, knowing a lot more prevalent autonomous vehicles. Um, I can see a day where with homes and cars, where you're paying a subscription fee like you do for Netflix or apple plus or you know, prime or anything else, with like a fifty bucks a month. That's why I pay for my car service and it picks me up and takes me to work and that's what I use it for. And owning assets is not going to be what it what, what it is right now. It's gonna be a lot different. Yeah, it's uh, it's definitely true that owning at home, like my kids are always like, I mean, I can never leave this house, and I'm like that he wants to move into a condo when you're...

...that is good. That is good. With the maintaining the house thing, I've done it for a while and it's great for the family, but at some point, like it is, it is not exactly my favorite part of the experience. So I think that's a really interesting prediction that the shift towards away from maybe the focus on owning assets that we've always thought us that thing you're supposed to do. Well, Michael, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your perspective. This was a great conversation, lots of great insights and I appreciate you making the time. Appreciate it, Jeff, thanks for having me. Up Start Partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern all digital lending experiments. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. Up Starts AI lending platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models, which fraud rates near zero. Up Starts All digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient ex variance for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto lending programs or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Upstart offers an end to end solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile, with all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing and servicing. It's all possible with upstart in your quarter. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting upstart dot com, slash for dash banks. That's upstart dot com slash forward dash banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player using apple podcasts. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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