Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 71 · 1 month ago

Creating a Mission-Led Credit Union Fostering Financial Wellness

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Credit unions are dedicated to not only serving their members’ financial needs, but to helping their members foster long-term, financial wellness.

Our guest today, Brian Vannoy, Chief Credit and Risk Officer at Allegacy Federal, describes Allegacy Credit Union’s unique approach to both direct and indirect auto lending as well as personal lending, and how they create opportunities to influence their members’ lives for the better.

Join us as we discuss:

  • Allegacy’s unique approach to both direct and indirect lending
  • The use of a network of point of sale relationships to offer better rates for members
  • Techniques to foster greater financial well-being for members
  • Creating a mission-led organization 

You're listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation and more. Let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders and lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Brian Van Noy, the chief credit risk officer and a legacy credit union. Brian and I dive into a whole bunch of topics um we really go through some of what they're doing differently and both the indirect and what he called sometimes a lifestyle or the consumer unsecured lending space. A lot of different approaches are taking there that I thought were interesting. Brian also dives into his history coming from banking into the credit unions and what he saw is different about that space, including the unique personalities of each credit union and kind of where they come from. I thought that was quite interesting and he also talked about finding five components of wellness that they focus on delivering for their members, of which obviously financial health is one, but kind of a more holistic picture about what's uh driving consumer behavior, consumer repayment and how they can most effectively help their members achieve not only their fan financial goals but their their life goals. It's a great conversation, so please enjoy this conversation with Brian. All right, Brian, welcome to the PODCAST. Thanks for making the time to join me today. Hey, Jeff, glad to be with you. Thank you for asking me. Yeah, well, so I've been starting with this same question for all my guests, which is, you know, most of us didn't grow up dreaming of being bankers or credit union executives. Um, tell me a little bit about you know, how you ended up in the industry and specifically in the Credit Union side of the space. Oh Wow, that's a good question. So it feels like an eternity ago, um, and I will confess that I'm among the crowd you just you, you just mentioned I remember this being my last choice among the options that I had when I came out of college. We're nonetheless here I am, some thirty years later. I started with a with a bank that was ultimately acquired by BB and t, now truist, and so Um, spent most of my career really in Um, in credit risk management, so I've been really involved in lending really from from day one. Um came to the credit union space about six years ago. So I've I've really enjoyed learning about credit unions and how they're surprisingly different in many ways than than Um, my background in banking. So well, tell me a little bit about what do you what are the differences, as you see them, between credit unions and banks? Uh, you've been on both sides of the of the AIS also to speak. What do you see those major differences? Well, one of the things that I think is most critical, was really most of a surprise for me, is just the distinct personality that each credit union has. Um, there's a great deal of collaboration among credit unions. There's a little bit of a less less less of a competitive nature, just based on, to be honest, Um, just based on kind of how we're measuring in terms of success.

So a lot of collaboration and what that fosters is, you know, conversation with our counterparts, or are perceived competition, if you will, across the street, across the country, Um. But through those conversations you come to realize pretty quickly. Wow, each credit union sort of has its own distinct personality, uh, and I attribute that really to the fact that we each company has, each credit union has a distinct field of membership. So if you think about the people that make up the organization and their roots, the company's roots, uh, they're going to naturally just emerge distinct personality. So that's one of the things I've I've really enjoyed learning about credit unions. How would you describe the personality of the current the Credit Union workout today? Well, we are what's called a multiple multiple common bond credit union. So that basically means that our field of membership, those folks who are eligible to join our credit union, are associated with a particular group of employers and uh, we started actually as the Reynolds, the R J Reynolds Tobacco Companies Credit Union. Um, interestingly, we also have strong relationships with a number of health systems in our region, some of the largest health systems. It's a very interesting combination, isn't it? That? I find that I find that quite ironic. And we have a particular focus, in fact, on ways that physical wellness and financial well being are sort of tied together. So, um, but yeah, so that I would say. Um, we're very fortunate to have, Um, a long history with some ver very strong companies and our membership really reflects that. So we have, you know, by and large, a professional, very professional membership. We have a large wealth management, Financial Planning Group relative to credit unions of our size. And Uh, and so I would say that's sort of that's sort of how I would distinguish our membership from from what typical, what typically folks may think of as a credit union number. Very interested. It's an interesting parent. I like it. Um, you know, you were talking earlier about the indirect lending portfolio you guys have and that it's a it's a little different. Tell me a little B about how you've approached that space. I think it's always fascaying to me that credit means are are much more into consumer lending generally than than, you know, even community banks, just kind of at an aggregate level. But indirect lending is always this kind of interesting question about how you approach it. approach for for the institution? And you guys are taking a little different approach than standards and tell me a little bit about that. We do actually, yes, and and that's one of the key learnings I should have mentioned about coming to a credit union from a bank, was that that inverse relationship with, if you will, of the commercial portfolio versus the leaning the business or the consumer portfolio rather. Um. Yeah, our approach to indirect is a little different and I would point to a couple of particular aspects of it. First of all, we do it all in house. So, Um, we actually underwrite all of our loans, we buy all of the paper that we buy in house, as opposed to what a lot of credit unions do, which is to make themselves a part of a larger, broader network. Um, and we feel like that helps us manage and control the risk a little bit and control obviously, the risk and the risk ward uh continuum for...

...for our membership and for the bounce sheet as well. So we do it all in house. Another thing that's distinct about the way we do indirect auto is we actually don't pursue indirect auto loans within our core markets. We think that relationship lending is not necessarily dead and that it needs to continue to be a part of what we do and what we offer our members. So if you were within a mile of our financial center you're shopping for a car, you're more likely to get a text message from US say hey, it looks like you are within an area where we know to be a car dealer. Be Sure to come to your credit union to get pre approved. And we actually offer preferential rates in our financial centers versus what we offer in our indirect program the other big distinction with what we do from an indirect loan perspective is we also have fairly significant network of point of sale, point of sale relationships other than with automotive dealers. So, for example, we have um relationships with medical providers who do elective surgeries, plastic surgeons and the like, with companies that do home improvements and some of those kinds of things which may not extend to secured lending programs, but they still offer an unsecured term product for our members that can be advantageous versus using their credit card or or financing them in other via other means. So I want to come back to this point in a second, but you said something really interesting to me, which was this kind of you know, offering direct auto loans in your financial center in addition to the indirect stop, and that is something I will say. When I talk to financial institutions, Um, they kind of they're they're answered to where their auto lending books. That's kind of looks like this. Jeff. I have a direct portfolio where people come to me for the loan and I love it, but it's tiny and nobody doesn't anymore and I can't grow up very effectively. And I have an indirect portfolio that like put some assets on the books, but it's highly competitive, the margin is low and I build no relationship with the consumer and I don't have like a profitable growth strategy. It's kind of like low margin thing that can can fill the balance sheet but isn't highly profitable or relationship. Where and I have some thing that I would love to make successful but I can't grow it. Are you finding ways to successfully get people to come to you to get a direct loan before that, you know, get a pre approval, stick with the Credit Union, even when they go to the dealer and get the sales the F and I guy coming out, and I gotta you know, that's something I feel like as many institutions I've talked to are trying to do with relatively limited success in general, and if you've got insights or things that are working, I'd love to hear them, because that's something of a holy grail from what I've heard in the auto space for most of the F F as I talked to. Yeah, well, I appreciate that question. It's always fun to talk about something that you feel like you're doing well. That's distinctive. Absolutely, but you you've hit it. You've hit the nail right on the head. We we have been successful, I will say, in flipping the script on what you just described as the phenomenon that the most that a lot of credit unions experienced. So absolutely, we do a lot of direct mail to our members. We do a lot of promotion to our members, largely leading with rate, with advantageous rates, for them to come and get a direct auto, come and get pre approved if you're gonna go shop for a car. You know all the ways we try to get in front of them. We use our...

...digital channels and the like to just make sure our members know that they can call, they can go online or they can come to a financial center to apply for a car loan and we're going to be there for them to take care of that need and they're gonna save money as a result of that. On the indirect side, the way we're approaching it, and again we're a little unique in that we do it all in house. We've set up a different value proposition for most of our me for most of our dealer relationships. So our rates are nowhere near what we can what we offer through our direct channels. But the value proposition that we bring to our dealer relationships, frankly, is cash flow. We are quick to fund. We really take very, very good care of our dealers. We don't have to overpay. With regard to incentives, are any of those kinds of the typical things you would expect to move the needle on the indirect side and we're not giving it away on rate uh, nor on the dealer incentives. Um. Really we set ourselves apart through service and just trying to build strong relationships with those dealers. And again they're not even in our core markets. There in tangential markets for our for our primary branch network. That's that is a fascinatingly different approach than I've heard from others. So interesting inside already. I like it. I want to hop back to this, I think you called it Um lifestyle, ending with the kind of point of sales stuff and just get your thoughts on generally. I mean I feel like there's this trend with buy now, pay later kind of having grown with some of the firms and the clariness so rapidly. And you know, I've often joked that. You know, I've had buy now, pay later for years because I had a credit card and I would would buy now and pay later. Uh. And yet there seems to be I'm curious what your thoughts are on this shift to kind of a different financing vehicle being made available at the point of sale, because there's an argument that this is VC fueled companies losing money to give away, you know, products below value. That's that's not sustainable and there's an argument that there's a real secular shift and how consumers think about financing larger purchases at the point of sale, what they're looking for, and I'm curious what you're seeing or what your thoughts are on that, because it's, I think, people trying to understand. How do I think about that? By now, pay later trend and what should I, as an institution, be doing too, if it is a real shift in how consumers are are thinking or one thing, what do I do to take advantage of that? Yeah, well, a couple of things come to mind. First of all, I really we really believe that the consumer balance sheet, the typical consumer balance sheet, is going to continue to go undergo a significant transformation and the degree to which there are going to be tangible assets to cover every piece of debt that that household needs to meet its cash flow needs or to or to have the things and the and the the opportunities that it wants to have. That that's kind of continued to migrate over time, over the over the long term. So we really believe there's an opportunity for us, um too. We've got to get out and be a part of that discussion and that transformation. Um One, you know, one slight little example is that we pay attention to how much of a consumer's Um monthly income is now spent on their their subscriptions, if you will, and how much. Again, that doesn't create an asset per se. It's really just a matter if it's an ongoing expense or our cell phone bill.

We've all experienced. We've all experienced so much demand on our our monthly income that no longer is attributable to an asset. And so we think that by offering a point of sale financing for these big investments that are not necessarily tied to an asset, whether it's you know again, whether it's an elective surgery or it's a you know, it's a cardboard edition, Um, we feel like there's definitely a need there. And the other thing that we like to educate our members about is it makes more sense to put that on a scheduled repayment and so let us set you up an unsecured term product that matches, if you will, the life of the asset or the life of the investment perhaps, Um, so that there's financial discipline around it and you don't just wake up one day and realize, Oh, how did my credit card get to have a twenty bounds on it? And Oh, by the way, it's a floating rate. And and we prode ourselves and our mission is helping our members make smart financial choices. So we see this as an opportunity to help our members make a smart financial choice. That feels like a real shift in the consumer approach to me, is this the desire to make intentionality around the borrowing process, you know, credit cards or lines of credit. Can feel, you know, a particularly credit card, that the difference between what I'm transacting and what I'm actually putting into a borrowing is kind of difficult for the consumer to discern at the point of transaction, right like swiping. Is this I'm gonna pay or my how much am I really borrowing? What's the cost of that? What's the duration? And I feel like this. The sense I get is that the shift to B in pl is one where saying, Hey, I want to understand that at the time that I'm borrowing. I want to know that I'm borrowing. I Wann't know how much, what will it cost? How long? I want to match that to your point to buying a pair of jeans. I don't want to finance it for fifteen years, but if I'm buying, you know, a car that I'm gonna keep for a decade, maybe I want to finance it for five or seven years, something closer to life. So do you do you see that that this kind of shift from, you know, kind of happy to have lots of cut on the credit card, kind of using it to this desire to like be a little more focused on how I'm how I'm creating an asset or a debt base for myself and what the you know, being really intentional about what that debt looks like. We do, in fact, we're counting on that, Jeff, to be honest, because, um, we really believe. Again, we believe there's still an opportunity for us to have a meaningful advisory relationship with our members and to help them think about those very things. What is the what's the ultimate cost of that pair of genes if I put it on my credit card and I and I don't pay it off for a year and a half or I just let it continue to sort of perpetuate itself? M versus again, if I'm having an elective surgery and I schedule that repayment over three years or four years Um. So we think there's an opportunity to continue to set ourselves apart Um. That's not to say that the you know, the the prevalence and the increasing availability of of consumer debt via channels other than a primary financial institution relationship not suggesting that's going to go back the other way at any point in in the near future. Um. But we do believe there is a role for that advice and and frankly, we think that there you know that the generational direction we're going may not be linear.

It may very well be that younger folks and folks of the younger generations may actually be more open to input and discussion and helping us make helping letting US help them make intentional decisions. So, Um, we don't think it's necessarily a linear regression that's moving away from having meaningful conversations at our financial centers. How do you think about Um enabling yourself? I mean I feel like there's this transition happening Um from you know, as we as we enable more digital that our staff is becoming less process oriented. I'm not processing applications, are doing the things that needed to get done and we're kind of manual before and are more freed up for this advisory conversation that many clients, or at least many consumers, say they don't feel like they have a great financial advibe. That you know you look at the service missfield. Good, you have someone you feel like you can trust to turn to a difficult financial questions and the answer is often like no, I don't uh. And I'm curious how you think about enabling and training and in you know, making your staff, staff ready to have those kinds of conversations, because it's quite different than what we might have done in a financial center ten years ago, when a lot of it was just somebody's coming in, they need to withdraw cash, you need to process this, we need to, you know, kind of you know, make a deposit whatever. It's very transactional oriented and now a lot of that's gone digital. But it means that our staff needs to be prepared to have a much more advisory Um, back and forth discussion than maybe we're used to. And that's like here's with the training and enablement challenge and how you how you really get people ready to do that? Yeah, you're absolutely right, and it's really it's two it's two fold. It's the opportunity and the skill set necessary to do that and to have those meaningful conversations. So just as, as you alluded, we are certain we're currently investing in technologies to help us move more of the process out of the hands of of our of our retail team, our member facing staff, um so that they have more of an opportunity to spend time with each member and do a little more holistic approach and maybe even find ways and to and to help educate the member and think more about those five ways, that those five aspects of well being that we believe we can actually influence Um. So definitely having opportunity to engage in those conversations is job one. Job Too, to your to your point, particularly in the talent crisis that we're all experiencing right now, it's a real challenge and, to be honest, we are finding ourselves having to change our mind, if you will, about who is the right target candidate for a financial center and we're finding that it's not necessarily somebody who worked, who works at a large regional bank or even a community bank. We need to think more holistically about who's good at engaging people in conversation. We can teach you the banking piece, we can't necessarily teach you the personality that's just gonna gonna make you feel comfortable to sit down, whether it's across the desk, it's across the table, it's with a cup of coffee with an individual and get them to open up about their financial lives, their financial goals, what's important to them, and so we're having to think very differently, as as...

I'm sure the entire industry is, about where to find the talent um who can be equipped for those kinds of conversations. That is a fascinating difference, and you got any advice on how you think about finding those people? If it's not, it's not the regional bank or the you know, the community financial institution. If it's not, I mean there's a kind of the I guess there's hiring for experience and hiring for, you know, capability, and you're really talking about hiring for a skill set, of personality type, a capability that's maybe different and not the experience of like understands banking laws and products and regulations, and that's all relatively teachable, although I really wish we did a better job teaching it in our schools. But Um, how do you find those people and what do you think about the you know, what you're kind of the key thing you're really looking for as you think about changing, you know, the requirements and expectations of that staff? Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked that because one of my very favorite stories is about a person who actually serves in our our flagship branch, if you will, and he actually came to our awareness because somebody experienced him at a retail location, at a retail store, I think it was, you know, a tennis, shoe or sporting goods store, and they had an experience with this individual that they found to be completely engaging. He was clearly so comfortable in his skin and just really really invited them into a deep, thorough conversation, uh and did a terrific job of selling them frankly and engaging in a conversation, a meaningful conversation, and he is now a part of our team. So I wish I had a magic bullet, but the only one I can point to so far is the fact that if you have a really good sales experience with somebody, whether it's at starbucks or it's, you know, at a sporting goods store, you know, just ask them if they'd be interested in kind of making a transition. It always reminds me of the what was that book about? The pikes place fish market, and people who just enjoy their work and make it fun, even when they're doing things that you might think of his drudgery or or pouring work, and I think those those people that that personality shines through and uh, that's a that's a great example. It really comes down to yeah, it really comes down to finding purpose. I mean it's really about people who want to who want to recognize that, yeah, I can sell you a checking account or I can make you, I can make a credit card available to you, but if I, if I, or I can make a mortgage loan. I'm fond of saying that nobody wants a mortgage. What they want is a house. What they want is security and and safety and and a certain degree of prominence and pride Um. So I think if you can find purpose and what you're doing in the financial institution business, then that's what kind of helps engage people and that's why, again, we try to get beyond just the just the finances and think about all aspects of of of well being. Well, you mentioned the five components of well being that you guys focused. I'd love to understand a little more about about what those are and what you mean by the five components of well being. Sure, so we we look at five different components. Obviously, financial well being is a big aspect of it. We believe that social health is an important is an important aspect of overall well being. Obviously, mental health. Unfortunately, there's so many, you know, pieces of evidence in our culture today that suggests that mental health is increasingly a challenge. Um and...

...a sense of purpose, and now I can't remember the ones I've mentioned physical, emotional, social and financial and sense of purpose and, as I mentioned earlier, we see we think of those as kind of cogs in the wheel of well being, if you will, and we recognize that people's money, households money, really kind of becomes the grease in the in the cobs Um, you know, you have to have. Obviously we know that financial stress leads to physical stress, it obviously leads to emotional stress. It limits the degree which perhaps you can engage in community and find sense of purpose and have have good, good cultural and um exposure to a community and community building opportunities. So we think about all five of those and how we can make a difference in making sure that money is, number one, not a source of stress in the household and, number two, that that cash flows, if you will, are eased in such a way that the member can find success uh, and can invest in the things that are important and can meet their long term financial goals. So that's that's kind of how we think about our opportunity to extend beyond financial well being. It's so great and I think it's it really ties to your point about the mission and can you connect with the mission, and I wanted to ask how do you how do you keep your imagine for the you know, the folks in the financial center, it's a little easier to keep connected to that sense of purpose and the emotional, social mental health of your you know your members as they're coming in and they're interacting, but I find it can be so challenging for those who are two or three levels removed from the day to day with the consumer to keep that. I mean the financial industry maybe more than any other and some ways can be turned into a spreadsheet and numbers game and your margin is here and your net interest margin is there and rates are here and you're kind of like, you know, moving around dials trying to optimize the business. And yet it can you know, really at the end of the day we're here to serve those members, to serve those consumers and help them achieve financial health, emotional health, social health, Um. How do you try and for your team members keep that in front of mind and keep that mission, you know, kind of in front of what they're doing when it's I feel like it can be so easy to lose sight of that when you're working with the struggles to like a rising rate environment that maybe is challenging the balance sheet and the income and how am I going to solve this problem? And you know, the focus on the consumer is so important to having that sense of purpose and mission. It's a great question and we do our best to help that have that idea of purpose and mission permeate all of the organization. So, for example, in our recognition activities we make sure that we include folks in the back, in the back of the house, as it were, and how they may implicate have how they may have had a positive impact on an outcome for a member, as well as the retail staff. So I'm a recognition perspective. When we talk about measures of success, really really throughout the ways we talk about Um what we're going to measure in a given period, whether it's a long term goal or it's a short term goal. It's very, very member focused. And so everybody, in as many ways as we can think of,...

...is engaged in making sure that we're making a difference for for our members in their in their lives. Um We have four core behavioral pillars that we measure, we manage against and measure two in every single performance evaluation, and that's really about serving, caring, collaborating and growing. And so we really we really speak a common language again in all areas of the organization to try to make sure that we always keep that focus on the member, serving, caring, collaborating. And how does one measure this? They're they're fascinating metrics and I remember, maybe I've spent too many years at IBM at the beginning of my career, but, like they used to say, what what, what gets measured, is what matters, and sometimes it's hard to measure certain things that we think are important and they can lose their important you're talking about caring. How do you how do you measure those things from like a performance review or just you know, because I do think ultimately the things we put numbers on and measure and report upon ultimately are the things that drive organizational behavior in the end, and it can hard on these softer subjects to do that and yet so important. It sounds like you've done some some sort of quantification of this stuff for mere measure. I'm curious how you're doing that. Yeah, well, if you have IBM in your background, I actually have some bbt and truest in my background and uh, you know, one of their former CEOS was famous for inspect what you expect. And so basically each of those behavioral pillars breaks down into specific activities. So, for example, um serve is putting others first, and it really becomes a matter of discussing and observing. You know what, what, in what ways has this individual exhibited that commitment of putting others interests before their own? And so you're right, it it's kind of tough to sort of reduce to a score, if you will, Um, but nonetheless I think we we always do our best to point to tangible examples of how we can live out those behaviors on a daily basis. Yeah, and sometimes even if the score is not perfect, just the the emphasis and the focus on trying to get to, you know, quantification and some sort of a way to evaluate these things. As you know, the process. Sometimes it's as important as the outcome. And absolutely I think about that even in terms of we were kind of talking about this earlier, Jeff. Think about that even in terms of underwriting and some of the learning activities that were involved in. You know, at at what point do we run the risk that we just we're all reduced as humans to basically five or ten scores, you know, and we think about that. You know, some of our innovations, frankly, have been around tying financial metrics to physical metrics. So we actually have a product where, based on the number of times you go to our local Y, M C A to work out Um, you actually can earn a higher dividend rate on your savings account. We call it our all health savings accounts. So again, just thinking about ways that we can do measurable things and can count measurable things and creative and create incentives around things that will be will be helpful both on the financial well being and the physical well being. So Um, you know. But then back to my point about when, you know, at what point do we run the risk that underwriting just be ums, you just become the sum of...

...your scores and uh, and really we want to always find ways to keep the human part uh, front and center. That's that's fascinating and I'm a huge believer that the world has driven much more by incentives than people understand and that, you know, like when we when you get the incentives right, kind of things happen naturally. When you get them wrong, it's it's it's really hard to fight that tide. That's true, you know, in the in the in the society as a whole and government policy, but certainly and in our personal behaviors and incentives and Um really drive a lot of outcomes that we may not want. But if we set up the incentives wrong, we may get what we incentive and not what we um what we desired, and that that ends up being a pretty powerful motivated that's a that's a fascinating program I gotta figure out how much more I would go to the gym if I had such a savings again and we got to find a new UH, find a new way to get myself to the gym. Well, Brian, was there anything else was on your mind you wanted to talk about today or topics you thought we should cover, but I forgot to ask about Um. No, Um, I can't think of anything specific. As I mentioned, I've had some exposure to upstart. Um. We're weird right heads down right now trying to figure out what is the best approach for us to employ artificial intelligence, machine learning, even some r p a into our processes to kind of with the big the big goal here being exactly what we discussed earlier, is how do we create opportunities for our people to engage in full conversations and help us, give us the opportunity to to influence people's lives for the better. So this is this has been a lot of fun for me to know. It's a great conversation. I'm sure we'll continue the conversation artificial intelligence and how we uh, how we can do that all, I think, to your point, in my mind, artificial intelligence is a lot about how do we find the right sources of data to move beyond a traditional credit score or handful of scores and really understand the situation of persons in and in a statistical way. Um, that we can you know, hopefully you know, the core insight we we really focus on is that many more people are worthy of credit in all its forms. Um then we understand to be and, as our CO founder once said, Paul, he's fun of saying that, like every loan, the default should never have been offered and every bar who pays back was charged too much Um, which, ultimately, the end of the day, is true, and that, when you think of that metric, we feel so far away from where where we need to be as an industry, where we're approving many more people, charging them less money and suffering fewer defaults. Uh. And if you are, I was thinking with the consumer side of the default as well. It's bad for the institution, is bad for the person Um, and that's a situation that could be avoided. So a lot of work to do to move past the credit score and and better serve our our consumer community. But that's what makes it exciting to get out about every day and go to work. I think that's right indeed. Feel like we can make a difference. Right. Absolutely well, Brian, there's three questions I ask everybody at the end of this podcast. I'M gonna I'm gonna Throw them at you now, uh, and we'll see what you got. The first is, what's the what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gotten? The best piece of career advice I have ever gotten. It was probably not what you would think. It was B press and it was invest...

...fully in the conversation you're having right now, Um, and everything else sometimes needs to be put aside. So that's something I really worked really, really hard to to do. Everything fantastic advice. Since Day's Asian just for the audience, is watching a video. When I looked down, I am primarily taking notes on the conversation. I try to focus in the meeting, but I do take notes. That's not why I mentioned that one. By the way, Jeff, I didn't think you were being got. I've got, you know, a ten year old and a thirteen year old sons and the the challenge around devices and Being President and distraction is a very real one and you know, my wife and I try and remind each other when the when the phone comes up and you're doing some go ahead, you know, like the president, what you're doing and do it well, and then you know, probably get more done that way in the end than trying to do five things at once. So I love that. The present great advice. Um. Second question, what's the best advice you've gotten about the consumer banking or consumer lending space? So this would kind of refer to something you. You said a moment ago that your co founder often says Um, and it really is just around this idea that we're going to make mistakes, Um, but that the goal is to document a reasonable decision. We cannot know everything that's going to happen in the future. We may not even know everything that's going to have happened in the past. But as long as we tell the story as to why we made the best decision we could in the moment with the information we had on hand, and we will have done our jobs. So, Um, document a reasonable decision. My team would tell you they often here we say document a reasonable decision. All right, I like it. And last question for you. What's one bold prediction for the future? I think this is this is my bold prediction for the future, Jevil, and I think it's actually gonna be a resurgence of something from way in the past. I think we're what's that kids love classic rocks make a big comeback. It's not that's not a bad idea, but it's really the re emergence of what in years and years ago, when I was a young banker, we had what all of our board members had guidance lines and I think that guy in slnes and the concept that we had years, thirty years ago, Um is going to be available to many, many consumers, and it basically just means okay, Mr or MS consumer, you will you have availability of x dollars in whatever form you want that money, whatever form you need that money, if you decide you're going to invest in you know, if you're going to invest in some improvement to your home or you're going to buy a car or you've got a kid that's going to college. Um that this money is available to you in a big chunk and and we will be happy to and that's going to be available to you, no matter how you want to structure it. I think there's gonna be an opportunity for us to be more flexible and to frankly create opportunities for us to be where our members need them to be. Uh, and so I think I think everything old is new again in terms of and much better. Let me say that Um it's gonna be a lot better than it used to be, but ultimately it's an old idea of but that's something I think is eventually maybe on it. It's a fascinating concept and we hear sometimes that I've started sometimes talked about the idea that once...

...you've applied for any piece of credit, really we can pull your credit file, we have information on you. We maybe you have depository information, so you can look at income. We ought to be able to, at any moment in time, show you all the offers of credit for which you qualify, you know, unsecured line, an auto secured line, a home secured line, whatever might be. There should be almost no applicant and obviously have verification and some processes, but generally you should almost have an instant availability of whatever your credit is, that the changes in real time, is your financial situation changes, hopefully to the better. Maybe you want to obviously, as we said early, you don't want to overextend people, but that that idea of like always having availability of the credit that you deserve is a really fascinating concept and one that we can in many ways do better than we ever could before with the technologies that are available today. Yeah, and that's what that's one of the things we we want to do continue to grow in this space, and that is there's a benefit to membership or there's even if I'm a banker. There's a membership to being my customer, because I know you better than anybody else and therefore I'm going to be best suited to make sure that you have what you need when you need it. So I love it. That's the resurgence of guidance line. I was not familiar with the concept, but I like it. Brian, thanks for coming with a lot of interesting insights. I appreciate your sharing them with the audience today. Thank you, Jeff. It's been a lot of fun. Upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. Up Starts AI lending platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models, with fraud rates near zero. Up Starts All digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto lenning programs or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Up Start offers an into in solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile, with all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing and servicing. It's all possible with upstart in your corner. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting upstart dot com slash four dash banks. That's upstart dot com slash four dash banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never missed an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player, using apple podcasts. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

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