Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 76 · 2 months ago

Digital Assets and the Metaverse: How Credit Unions Can Deliver Value

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What is the value of digital assets and how are they used? It’s not an easy question to answer- and it’s not just about cryptocurrency either. Is it possible to leverage digital assets in the lending space?

Joe Keller, VP of Digital Assets at Visions FCU, details his experience in the metaverse and what digital assets can be of real value to both lenders and borrowers.

Join us as Eric and Joe discuss:

  • How do we assign and access the true value in the metaverse- using real estate as an example
  • Examples of digital assets where people interested in the space can get involved and learn more
  • Digital assets beyond cryptocurrency (Yes, we talk about NFTs)

Want to learn more about how Upstart partners with credit unions? Check out this case study mentioned in the episode.

You are listening to Leaders and Lending from Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week, here decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, best practices around digital transformation, and more. Let's get into the show. Welcome to Leaders and Lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Joe Keller, the VP of Digital Assets at Vision's Federal Credit Union. I enjoyed this conversation. Digital assets is a fascinating topic. We delve into a little bit the underlying technologies assets. Outside of cryptocurrency, we actually delve into real estate, both the applicability of digital assets and blockchains to physical real estate and the concept of digital or metaverse real estate. So a very wide ranging conversation about a really interesting topic that I think is on everybody's minds right now as we think about where blockchains and crypto fits into the future. So please enjoy this conversation with Joe Keller. Oh, thanks for joining the podcast. I appreciate your making the time today. I appreciate you guys having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, I'm excited for this conversation. You're in an area that everybody wants to know about, UH and diving in deeper, which is great. And I want to start You know, when we were talking earlier, you had mentioned to talk you gave with some younger students or consumers and their perspective on digital assets generally that you found in trigging. So I kind of wanted to start there laying the groundwork of like these digital assets, consumers, anticipations, expectations, interactions changing. So what what was it that you heard that surprised you? Yeah, I think it's and I think every single time I go and have a conversation with different groups, UM, whether it's the same look and feel a group in different areas, UM, I almost get different answers. And that's probably the most interesting part about it is no matter you talked to, you just get some kind of different spin or pull. But I think there is this real rooted sense of hey, the world is changing, so let's change with it. UM and digital assis in crypto and how I interact with whether it be my financial institution or with upper or a merchant UM is changing and they're comfortable with that change. Um. But it's also interesting, like you go to certain areas and it's almost like they've never even heard of crypto. Um. And then you go to other areas and it's like, oh, if you're not invested in crypto, like you might as well be broken. UM. So it's such a wide range of conversations UM. But yeah, it's it's all over the place, but it definitely is that sense of, um, the world is changing, let's change with it, versus like why are we dabbling in this space? Yeah, I'm curious if you hear real intrigue or interest in particular kinds of digital assets. And I love that we're talking about digital assets and not cryptocurrency, because I feel like cryptocurrencies is one very special lies kind of digital asset. But there's the space and the concept...

...is so much more broad and interesting. But where do you see interests or where do you personally have interests when it comes to the different kinds of digital assets? Do you own any interesting digital assets or I do own a few. I don't think you can play in this space without actually playing in the space. I do own a few, and I'm definitely one of those learned by doing people. So I had to get out there and um, even in fact six years ago, just get involved in different ways. Obviously one was like the year for everybody to get involved, and I think I saw a stat something crazy like forty of the people who were involved in the asset ownership of crypto got involved in within the last twelve months. So it's like, oh, yes, you guys all bought on the absolute stream. Now it's falling off a cliff and now everybody's like, well, I guess that was kind of bust. Um. But it's interesting because it's very correlated to kind of what the market is doing right now with kind of the risk off environment we're in. So UM, it is interesting. I think you have to be involved. I think how you get involved in digital assets um probably is somewhat of where you are in life. But also, um, how do you think the application of digital assets also makes sense? So you think of it just as a payment mechanism, then you're probably gonna get involved in just a basis of how do I exchange something between two people? How do I hold something of value? Um? If you think of it a little bit differently in the sense of Okay, if I have a real world asset that could be represented digitally, UM, what I want to own that, Let's say like a piece of real estate that I could convert into instead of true title on paper and making a digital title on a digital registry and on it that way, how could I token eye it or fragments make fragments of that token over time? I think that's really interesting. UM. And then you even go down this marketplace of kind of the digital world in general, right, and so you get these people all playing in whether it be the metaverse in that or any kind of augmented reality in the use of digital assets in that space where digital is only UM is really interesting too because it's hey, if I am always talking about a small groups of uh, these college kids, and they were wrapping their heads around like whoa, how does this have any value? And that was kind of the question they kept coming back, but how do how does crypto have any value? And so it's a good question. It's like, okay, well, and then you're breaking down like well, why did anything ever have value if it wasn't truly backed or had some kind of one to one of something else that had value. But then you could just go down and like, well then why does gold have value? Um? Yeah. The one that really got me, I think it was Ben Thompson from Strategery, who who made the comparison to baseball cards. And you know, I kind of went okay when I was abou n f T s and how does this n f T and do you really own and somebody can just copy and whatever, and I'm having this debate and they you know, and I read his PC so well, you know, he keep read baseball cards. So I thought, well, yeah, it's a piece of cardboard with inc on it. I mean, anybody can like the pictures online, you can print it, you can recreate it, you can make a mint one. And somehow you know they're worth money because someone else...

...will pay you more than you got. But there's no inherent It means a piece of cardboard, right Like we throw these things out when they come from Amazon a couple of times a day, and yet we think of that one as being special. And so that was you know, I had a hard time finding a reason that an n f T was in some substantive way different than a baseball car, which can trade for quite quite a bit of money. So that was like, at least a real world example. I went, huh, maybe it's not as crazy and out there is it sounds to me when I first think about it, because you know, there are things in the real world that are equally crazy when you really feel back the onion. Yeah, well it's funny he uses the baseball car because that's like the easy singular, like, okay, it means something to somebody value, right. Um. The other side of that coin, and probably why we're having such hard time regulating crypto in general is you've got the universe where there actually is functionality behind a coin or a token. Right, so as soon as my coiner in my token has some kind of um, it's a producer of something. Well, now I look more like a business. Now I look more like a security. Now it look more like a stock. Okay, well, now I can see why people. I'm not really sure how to regulate it, How does it pass the how we tests? How do we go through some of these things? So when you go through those questions of value, it is interesting you kind of almost gotta start with crypto or digital access as as an entire asset class and then start pulling it off and then you start going, well, that's really just a technology that you're using. That's just a story of value. That's actually a system by which I'm going to do something. Well, that's actually a company that produces coins, which the coins are worth something in the relation to the functionality that that is, that token or that coin. So there, it's all over the place. I think that's why it's so hard but also so interesting for what's going on in this environment right now. A couple of things you said I want to dive into, but first I want to go back to one thing you said, which was learned by doing so for the audience member that is not doing a lot, and I'll follow you down this this trail. That's what's gonna do. Is there recommendations for other than like you gonna say, open a coin based wallet and buy some the theory having some bitcoin and so long and whatever. But they're like examples of digital assets that you feel like are good examples where somebody could go and learn by doing maybe something they could try. It's not yeah, and I don't think it's always like put your money where your mouth is either, right, Like a lot of people as soon as it's fifty cents, right, I wanted to do it, but I found it's not a particularly impressive piece of art. But it's you know, it's fine. But even just kind of exploring I think, you know, we talked about the metaverse a little bit and kind of that space too. You can get involved in in some of those areas which are are creating UM and you're seeing a lot more companies get involved in producing n f T s or releasing n f T s with different products. UM. That's an easy way to kind of get started. UM. An easy way also is like you always actually say, hey, I'm about to own an asset or someone's about to give me something, Well where do I put it? Right? And so well, if it's a digital thing, you've got to have a digital place to put it. And so then wallet's become a question. So now go down kind of that wallet path of like, okay, explore the wallet's you know downlottle while decide if you want to hardware wallet or software wall at...

...decide if you want a cold or hot story if you know, like kind of going through that question and answer to yourself, UM with something that probably doesn't have a lot of monetary value because you're gonna mess it up the first time. You're probably gonna forget your key or forget your pass code, and next thing, you know, you've don't want to be the guy searching through a pile of rubbage trying to find his seventy five billion dollars worth a bitcoin on jump drive. So you know, it's those kind of things that that I would say getting involved doesn't have to mean and go buy um, but it does mean start seeing how these things are being used, Go find one, go see a company that's doing it. Um jump in the metaverse, right, there's a lot of opportunity. They're just kind of like go in and see. And I'm not a huge metaverse fan as much as it's just something that is something different. So you're gonna go, you're gonna learn, you're gonna experience, and that's probably gonna mind to something else. I want to dive back in the metaverse in real estate. First, I'll get my my my thing, which somebody told me as it helped me out with digital assets and n f t s. They sent me to z Run. I don't think you ever done this show, but I bought a digital racehorse and it was like a hunter pucker with a lot of money. Um. But then it races and it has to gets standing and it gets stronger and you can train it and I don't have the time. I'm not like a game or sign of the time for but you really saw a different side of what was. My kids loved it because you could go and enter it in a race and actually they do a three D you know if you can watch the horse race and he pulls ahead and he falls behind and whatever. Um. But it's a fascinating at least away like an example for me where I could go acquire one of these more and not not just an f T. That was a photo that now like I can look at open see and see my photo, but I can actually interact with it in a in a more real life way. So that was mine. Sports one is that's interesting. I'm gonna forget the name of the game, but there's a FIFA actually partnered with somebody and then a soccer football being the more traditional form of it. Um. That is an n f T game. But you build a team basically like through the weeks, so you you get your free team finished, which is but then as you win games and play other opponents, you earned coins or earn more points, and you can buy higher n f T is better players all the way to the ring. Now all those of the world, and you can form a super team and then now you're in the Premier league and you're actually battling and supposedly these competitions are for hundreds of euros and things like that that are going on. So it's there's places to explore UM and just kind of get gaming is a very natural place where n f T is kind of like have an easy first. I'm not gonna the only but definitely a place where you can have a digital good and make sense to be able to have some custody of it, to be able to trade it, to be able to sell it and use it, and it can it can increase and decrease in value over time and in very real ways, right if it's a it's a sports team or players on a sports team or whatever it might be. UM. So I wandered it before. I think real estate is this really interesting way to look at UM digital because there's both I think a real world enabled by digital concept in real estate, and then there's like a digital world in the metaverse concept. So I want to dive into that, but first I wanted to back up and then and say, you know, you made the comment that you're as interested in that the underlying technology being transformative as individual use cases. So before we dive into individual these cases, I...

...thought it was worth kind of diving into what that underlying technological capability that is in your mind so transformative is and why that's such a shifting capability. Yeah. And I wouldn't necessarily say it's vetted out well enough to know that it's UM. It's it's just like any innovation. And I have this conversation with people all the time where we have innovation that occurs and there's a statement about the innovation that is up here, um, and it's gonna be it's gonna transform everything, and it's completely transparent and it's trust less and it's all these kind of things that are and it's like, Okay, maybe um and maybe at its purest form with no fraud and no other things that could happen, like maybe I could get there, But how do we know it could get there? Um? And we gotta know by doing so when you look at the technology, and that's I would say, here are visions. That's kind of our our core focus is Okay, let's first we'll get as an asset. Then let's understand how would people want to use the asset, and that kind of gets into maybe some lending dynamics or some quaterized lending components, and then you get into okay, what could other things be a digital asset? Yeah, okay, maybe we could see loans being actually a piece of paper digitally rather than an actual wet signature. Okay. Secondary markets participations could be an obvious case where I don't want to find this whole hotel by myself. Let me go UM securitize this in a different way. Okay, if I can do it fully digital, make it transaction easier to transform UM. So the use of blockchain and distributed alleged technology, tokenization of an asset and the components that's built in with that. Additionally smart contracts. You start to see this ecosystem being built that actually starts to connect with that, and you go, okay, it really is the basis of the core functions of what we do in financial services, right, Like I take people's money, I store their money, I lend their money UM, and I give other people money. Um, Like that's basically the core functions, making it really simplistic, and if I could do all those in an easier, more transparent way, alleviating any of the intermediaries or making it more automated, less and interaction less error, those kind of things, like you kind of naturally just have to explore it. Right. So, just as much as ease of use for internet based or digital banking, it was just an obvious you have to go down that path, Like there's a there's a purpose to go into a building and still do banking, but there's also a reason that I don't need to anymore, um, And so you have to kind of make that easier for people and encourage people to continue down that path. So part of our job is continued exploration. But it's also understanding the technology well enough to say it is their true application. Um. If there is application, how quickly would the application get adopted? Because that's kind of the big gap right now I see is adoption. Um. Some of this stuff really makes sense, there's use cases for it, people starting to do things, but if nobody actually adopts the use of that technology, technology is going to go aside until the adoption occurs, right, and you know, you saw that even in the history of kind of all you know, they shans you you have these moments...

...of you know, a car was awesome, but everybody kind of looked at the car like it was crazy, and all of a sudden didn't get produced for X mighty years because it just was unfeasible and the adoption just wasn't there. And all of a sudden, once the adoption happens, you know, the race takes off to how fast can do ev is a good, uh today use case? Right Like evs have been around for forever, it feels like, um pretty much as long as I've been alive, but nobody really used them. And all of a sudden, Tesla just decided to know, we're absolutely making this a use case that we're gonna force adoption and encourage adoption. Now, you know, this year, I think, I don't think there's a brand with name that doesn't have an electric vehicle or it doesn't have a plan to have the electrical electric vehicle in the next year. And there's some that are saying we're not going to make a consumption vehicle outside of electric in five ten years, right, So it's kind of amazing how fast that's really changed. You think about the number of manufacturers who are put out hybrid and then now to put out an e V and now they're saying in five years or seven year is whatever we all e these um And it's I think it's a it's an interesting comparison to things like digital because it is and some of the infrastructure like I own one internal combustion in car and one electric vehicle, and the electrics great, but then you're going along road trip and you land, well, were are the charge like, well it goes three in a miles, but yeah, but from a charging stations, depending where I'm going, that may you know, I may not be close to my destination, and so you know, you can you know, and it takes longer to charge, and all those things are changing, and so what was inconceivable thirty years ago is now, you know, for day to day it's a great car from me around town, so it's fantastic, and then there's like edge cases where it doesn't work, and those things were all changing. So a lot of it's not even just the some of us the technology itself improving, some of it is the infrastructure that enables adoption in crypto might be on ramps and off ramps right, and clarity on taxation and things like that that say, hey, we can actually, um, we can actually rely on these things and use them. Um. Not just like our consumers gonna adopt it, but that we built the full ecosystem of things that somebody needs outside of just the bitcoin um to enable someone actually use it for the things that it can be better at. You're always gonna do the easy things first, right, and the easiest decree and also the highest dollar to capture, right, Like, that's where people are going to chase first. Hey there, I'm David brand, s VP of Lending Operations at Share and View Federal Credit Union. When we saw our members turn to personal loans to consolidate and pay down their debt, we knew we needed to improve our digital process. We were able to launch with upstart in just sixty six days without any heavy lifting or hiring any additional staff. Best of all, we've been able to work with our account manager to adjust our loan volume and returns given the current economic environment. If you want to learn more about how we've been able to scale to ten million dollars a month in personal loan volume and acquire over members to expand relationships with You can check out our case study on upstart dot com slash lender. That's Upstart dot com slash Lenders. Thanks for your time. Now...

...back to the show. So let's talk. Let's talk about two use cases that I think are kind of polar opposites but the same in that their real estate. But just to say, let's talk about how crypto can be applied to real world real estate. About the least digital asset my house, but the least digital asset I own in many ways, and yet I think there's a lot of ways in which the technology is underlying um crypto can actually, you know, greatly improve the process of buying, selling, and financing real estate transaction in the real world. And that's something I know you've got experience in the in the real estate finance, in you know, the whole the whole space of real estate. So give me your thoughts on that, because I think it's interesting and then interesting to compare that and contrast that to like metaverse real estate, whatever that might mean. Let's talk about the real Yeah, now, I like it's something we talked about a lot of times. One of the hardest things for people with digital assets is We'll have a real asset, a real tangible thing. How do I make it digital? And then once I make it digital, how do I make sure nothing happens to the real asset? So like the connecting of the dots is really hardy. So I can even see you can go down some of these it's called easy paths. So you can go down the lending path first and say, well, we're already making the lending process more user friendly, more digital. Um, I never actually have to see somebody in person. I never have to actually physically sign anything. Um Okay, I can fully digitally enable something that way. Okay, well, depending on the state, maybe easier than others, depending on the country, for sure easier. Um, So you can go down that path. You can see how it would work. Well, now that I have a digital file that represents even just that loan or alan connected to a title, Um, well what about the title? Well, the title has been registered and that plot of land was registered forever ago in some county or city on some registration system. That has now become a book that has so many numbers tied to it. It's hard to keep up with and you need a lawyer to write up the contract, right, Um, it's hard to say, well, who actually owns that? And then how do I make sure that that is the only person who has owned that has a lean against that all these kind of different components that you need all these intermediators to to justify that transaction is legitimate, and even then all of them have clauses in their insurance that says, but we may be wrong. Um, and so you know, you know, you go through this entire process and pay all these components to do that. Well, if we could get to a place where we have a system that is touting itself to be fully transparent, fully traceable, I can see everything I'm doing. If it's built that way. Now I can shift that title, even if it's just at one point in time, over to that system, and then from there on out I no longer need because I can just write a script that's going to confirm how it starts. Becomes pretty easy. Context of digital titles, and it is well, it seems odd in some ways as as as a good...

...asset class for digitization and being on an open Ledger, it's also like a unique as class asset class and that ownership of it in most places as a public record, like it's already the kind of public nature of the blockchain is like, well, it turns out the county Recorder's office is the same, Like if you go and ask, they'll tell you who owns this piece of land right here, And it's very similar. It's a public record of ownership of a good uh. And really, I mean when you go to the County Recorders office, you don't it's not like it's like the houses there. You've got a number that says, you know, there's some recordings somewhere of like that number equals this plot of land and Jeff owes that number, I E that and so well, it feels very separated from a digital reality, like it's not all those kind of abstractions are already done. They're just done in pen and paper in in in the basement of some county building. Usually. Yeah, I think it was probably three or four years ago. I was having a conversation with somebody on in in this space, and as a former consultant, like the first question is always like okay, well how could it be done? Could you scale it? Couldn't make could work all these kind of pieces. You're trying to build out this master plan real quick. Ayb Like every single city, county, state has different rules, different process, they're all these kind of and so for someone to do that, you would have to build something that would then be and by the way, there's whole bunch of revenue tied to it as well, um for those counties and taxes and blah blah blah. So now on you have to solve it. They're gonna you're gonna possibly pull some of that tax away from them or the revenue with from them, but also the control away from them. Like okay, now how do I at all levels? But you have to start somewhere. So, you know, I've been kind of waiting to see some pretty one of these maybe tech forward city states counties basically just said, hey, listen, we're converting our entire record book to a digital registry and from here on out, it's gonna be digital registry. And that system that's built might be the system that other counties, cities like you know what, will adopt national database. That's that's possibly interesting case you talk about all the different policies and rules and laws and different places it. You know, I've been around a lot of technology shifts, and it turns out that when you've got a better technology for the inn customer, a lot of times the rules that it doesn't work just become rules that we don't use anymore, right, because the rules end up often being dictated by the available technology to do the thing. If the technology is better to go, well, it's the better way to do it is X. And my my rules on support actually just shift the rules around so we can we can actually leverage this technology. So that may sound backwards to many people, but I think it's not as far fast as you think benefits. Yeah, I think the I mean number one thing you're dealing with, right is adoption. Right, can you get people to actually use it um? And then secondarily if consumers want it and it's better for consumers. Most city, states, counties are run by officials who get elected by those people, and so you have a natural kind of snowball that could be created in those environments like oh, my cousin Mountain whatever state is already doing this and they get to say five hundred dollars a year on their taxes because they have a digital registry system, Like why haven't we done this yet? Um, that's where it's gonna ahad, we'll see would actually occur.

But the system has to be their technology has to be really clamped down. Um, because at this point in time, I think that's the misthrit I have this idea for technology. There's some use cases, there's some adoption there, but is it really well known enough to start doing public record with. Yeah, yeah, we'll see. I think it's that will be one of the tests. Right, So let's maybe wrap on a we've amazingly gone through most of our time already, but on the kind of polar opposite, which is like they are not not not not digital technology for facilitating physical real estate, but like digital real estate because in the concept of the metaverse, there is an idea of real estate. And this is an idea that's I mean, it's been around for a long time. People in science fiction have been writing about the concept of the metaverse in one form another for decades and decades, well before there was any technology that would even even merit. And this concept of is real estate? Is it infinite and therefore of no value in the metaverse or is it um? You know? In some ways? Look, cacation location location. He gets there first, gets the best spot, and makes a ton of money, the way you would if you bought a downtown Manhattan piece of land way back in the day. What's your take on what goes on with real real state in the in the digital world the metaverse? Um? I think both ends of the spectrum are right right now. Unfortunately, I don't think there is this um. And you think about even just the initial attoption of the Internet of Okay, Well, at some point in time, domain names in general became oh man, you gotta own that doname name. And there's still sub substance to that because of the centralized control of search engines. But at some point time even that's kind of shifting. Like if you have enough content, and if you are the actual provider of that thing, you're gonna end up getting ranked high enough. You may have to pay to be in the top three, but you're gonna end up being ranked on the first page release, right. Um, So there's there is some that general concept of well, infinitely available. Is the real value to it? Well, there's value to the content of what you have there The inverse being you can have sites that are pay only sites, or you can out of sights, so we're we're metaverses or digital landscapes that are hey, you have to have a subscription to join. Well, in that space, you can for sure see an area that says, well, I'm paying to be part of the yacht club. Uh and in order to have the best doc and yacht, I have to pay the most amount of money on the dock that everybody has to walk by and the yacht that everybody has to see first. Like okay, um, I could see that being valuable and having, especially in the retail or the consumer space, having clout. You know, if you create that environment where people want to be, you know, then the real estate there could definitely become very valuable. But it's all digital. So does it solve some of those other things we're just talking about, Well, who actually owns it? How's it transferred? All the intermediars in between. It's interesting when we started upstart um, it was actually harder to get ahold of social media handles than domain names and in many ways more important, right because people, I mean from an interaction point of view, um, you know, find you on social media, and that's like every site...

...is different. You often can't buy it, you know, a handle off somebody. Uh, and there's still a lot of interesting but like that's almost more important. And I wonder in the world of mobile apps if it's not shifting again to some other set of things are more or less important. But it's it's interestingly finding acquisition of your like the digital real estate associated with your brand is not it's not a physical real estate, but it is, like it goes when we want up start dot com okay, we find that that was for saying why that? Okay? And your Twitter handle, your snap handle? How do you get a Facebook handle? Like somebody owns that, you know, Like, um, it's a really interesting thing at some point what that really means. So it'll be be interesting to see a playoffs. I don't think I don't think anybody really knows the answer yet. You guys bought your ethereum handle yet I bought my Theoryum, I got my e n s for a person, But I don't know the upstart has yet. We should go get a go get a handle lot in ethereum and maybe Salanta and every blockchain that's kind of namespace go get your other race right now. Yeah, But ultimately I think the point you made, which I really like, is the value of most of the real estate in the digital world in the end accrues to the people who create value for consumers through it, right, And that's right now, the most valuable real est And you know it's probably the first search page, first search results page on Google. You don't like you didn't get there because you were there first. You got there because at this point we don't need to get into whole Google bias, you know, good bad argument. Theoretically, they are highlighting the sites that are adding the most value to consumers, and so there's a way to climb to the top of that um that's not be there first, but kind of be the be the most value added, the place people want to be, help people interacting with it. I think that's hopefully a better, better outcome, Joe, they're topics. I mean we we we've covered quite a bit of ground in the last twenty seven minutes. But where their topics you wanted to talk about from our earlier call that you thought we should go into or do we hit most of the highlights here? And I think we had a lot of topics in general. I mean, the digital assets space has so many different angles plays pushes, UM. I think the number one thing I just try to tell people with educate yourself, UM. Just like anything that's new, right, you gotta get out there on the spoor and educate yourself UM. And that's part of our responsibility, UM being whether it be a fintech or being a financial institution, it's like we're trying to educate our consumers. So for us, we're trying to make sure I remembers to educate it on this stuff and if it then enables us to give a better member experience through whether it be a technology and or shift in something else, that's what we're going to pursue. And we're gonna make sure we can give the best experience to our members at the best price. So that's a new innovation and technology. We're gonna pursue it. And I loved your earlier point for anybody interested in the space, you learned by doing, and I would take it one step farther. My wife had this saying they had a medical school that I love, which was see one, do one, teach one. They say, you don't, you don't really know what until you've tried to teach it, So you know, go out and see it. You don't just read about it, like, go and do it and go, you know, get a wallet, find a space to the research for I want and then go try and explain it to you know, I explained to my wife or to my dad or whoever this interesting I go. And then you asked me questions. I don't know, so I don't know what as well as I thought I did. But I'm an ago like that. Really, I feel like when...

...you can explain it to somebody, then you've then you've really learned it. So see one do want to teach one? Maybe a good approach for that, But you can't just read. You've gotta go and like you gotta touch interact. Do I put a little bit of money of signs and because it's just my like, I'm not trying to invest and be a bit qui millionaire, but I'm gonna put a you know, a thousand dollars, it's thousand dollars a side and go this is just a learning budget to go and invest in my own knowledge and education in the space. If that means I gotta buy a digital racehorse or whatever. That's what I'm going to allocate some funds to do, because it's you know, it's like taking a course. I got to be one to pay for the education. It's like my cost of admission. So that's my advice, all right. So I got three questions I asked everybody at the end of this podcast. UM. So here they are, and in the same order everybody gets asked, always say no particular, arver that is particular or the person. One is, what's the best piece of advice you've ever gotten a career advice? UM? And I read this question, I literally was like, God, there's so much good advice UM that I've gotten over the years. It's hard to like sending down to one good thing. So I'm gonna give two small pieces UM. One is UM, as soon as you realize you're the smartest person in the room, will leave UM. So I always look and find other people around you who can make you better and you get smarter. UM. And then the second is UM, help others without expecting anything back. And that's more of a life piece of advice than career UM. But I've definitely applied to my career and I don't go through my career. It's trying to help somebody and then knowing like, well, now you yield me a favor, and now it's something I didn't want to get back from you. It's how can I get back to the industry. How can I do things? How can I help educate somebody? How can I do because God only knows what I'm gonna need some help? Um, and maybe they'll come back to me. Maybe it won't. Put with no expectation, give with no expectations, and and never be the smartest person in the room. I tell my kids, I'll try. If you have the smart person in the room, you're in the wrong room. UM. Good advice, all right. Second question, what's the best piece of advice you've gotten on? I usually asked about the consumer lending space. Well, we'll say consumer at lending or digital assets buyer's choice. UM, a piece of advice or prediction slash piece of So I think this is an interesting UM. Learn by doing is definitely one that whether it's technology, innovation, lending, I even financial education, I had to learn by doing. Like my parents didn't give me a financial education, school still give me financial ucation. So I learned by doing within the same camp that was UM. And then my awkward prediction for consumer lending is that we're gonna do a forty year mortgage before we realize it. That's usually both predictions of my last question. But you got there for forty year mortgage? What why? Um? Where we're headed with prices, where we're headed with costs? Where we're headed with just ease abuse by consumer? UM? I think in the end, why do we have thirties? Is the first question? Right? Like, so if you're gonna say, well why forty? Why why fifteen? Why? Five? By any of these um? Interest only? Probably so it's all fitting to the consumers needs UM. And it just seems like...

...the thirty year mortgage was based out of necessity, Uh what now a hundred years ago? Um? And so is it the same necessity today? Does the same duration makes sense? The same horizon makes sense? So I think with the interest orary risings, with inflations, with cost of living recession, I think this next weird cycle of credit is going to produce some interesting lending terms and mortgages that we've never seen. Forty why not? Why not fifty? It's nice round number. Yeah, because if we jumped to fifty. It's too extreme, so we gotta jump forty the forty year mortgage. That's a bolt. You've met the bar of a bold prediction. I appreciate you making the time to this. This is a great conversation. I enjoyed it. I'm sure the audience fall. Thanks for thanks for joining us. Thanks you to appreciate you. Up Start partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. Up Starts AI lending platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models. With fraud rates near zero, up Starts all digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto learning programs or you're just getting started, Upstart can help. Upstart offers an end to end solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile. With all digital underwriting onboarding loan closing, and servicing. It's all possible with Upstart in your corner. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process, and growing your business by visiting upstart dot com slash four dash banks. That's upstart dot com slash four dash banks. You've been listening to Leaders and Lending from Upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to Leaders and Lending in your favorite podcast player using Apple Podcasts. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening, until next time.

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