Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode · 3 months ago

The Modern Move Towards Experiential Banking w/ Jim Wechsler at WSFS Bank

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

With the shift to digital, people are coming into retail branches less often — but for more important things. Because of this transition, banks are making the switch to experiential banking — less focused on routine transactions and more on becoming trusted financial advisors. 

In this episode, Jim Wechsler, Chief Retail Lending Officer at WSFS Bank, shares how his bank has been transitioning to this new model and why he thinks a fintech partnership makes sense. 

Jim has been in banking for over 10 years. His main focus has been on consumer lending, fintech partnerships, and corporate strategy. WSFS Bank is the largest and longest-standing community bank in the Greater Delaware Valley. Their motto: We Stand For Service.  

We discuss:

- Why partnerships between banks and fintechs can benefit everyone

- Transforming retail banking into experiential banking

- The value of focusing on the customer experience

- Investing in back end processes for a delivery transformation 

Want more lending advice? Find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and here. 

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There are three big components and whya customer like slept back price, you know the economics have to work, it'sgot to be convenient and there's got to be trust and every customer values osthree things very differently. You are listening to leaders andlending from upstart a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders,grow their programs and improve their product offerings each week. Herdecision makers in the finest industry offer insights into the future of thelending industry best practices around digital transformation in one let's getinto the show. Welcome to leaders in lending I'm yourhost Jeff Keltner. Today I talked to Jim Weschler, the S V P and chiefretail lending officer at Wifis Bank, which is we stand for service, aregional munity bank based in Delaware. That's really fascinating conversation.Jim Talks about you know the role of branches in a digital world. What hedescribes as customers, using them a less often but for more importantthings. Talk through the Fintech Partnership Strategy, they've had wherehow and why, Jim Se Os is important ways to augment the bakes capabilitiesof what he does see is the core weighs a bank earns loyalty in the Digital Ageand finally, Jim makes it one of the better bold predictions I've seen atthe end of the podcast, so stay tuned and listen to that at the end, becauseI think it's quite an interesting one and something everybody will probablyhave an opinion on so enjoyed the conversation, hey jim thanks so muchfor join us on the podcast today. I really appreciate your taking the time.Thank you for having me yeah. So you know you and I have known each otherfor a while God we met way back when having conversations, but I wanted tostart this conversation off with you know. We had exchanged one informationadvance about different topics and you had made some comments aboutperspectives. You had about consumer lending that had changed. I thoughtwere really interesting, and so I kind of wanted to dive into that. Do youwant to share those for the audience? Then we can talk about them a littlebit yeah sure, so I think, along with many others, used to think probablyfive years back, that banks were going to have to turn themselves intosoftware companies if they really wanted to compete and be sustainable.Long term common belief was at fin text...

...were disrupting and the money centerbanks had unlimited budgets to invest in software and community banks weregoing to be able to keep up, and my view in on this has changed quite a bitover the last five years so somewhere along the way, I think fintech stoppedthinking they were going to completely replace, backs and started to embracethe partnership model. Obviously upstart great example that, but thatcombination with back some fin text makes a ton of sense in tact to bringthe innovation. The customer experience. Typically an obsession with a singleproduct, healthy s, accession and expertise. Banks have a lot to offer aswell. You know. First, we've got customers, we're very good at beingregulated were disciplined. We've earned a lot of trust over the yearsbecause of all those things, but we also have Balad sheets. We've got allthe other products and services to eventually offer customers as well. Soyou know, I definitely think banks community backs like whisped to be moretech savvy and we are we're getting there, but I no longer see in Texasthat pure disruptor that I thought they would be five years ago. I think FINTACare coming around to that yeah. I mean I've been saying this for a while thatI think the ultimate combination is banks plus ten text, and I thinkFintech have to choose either you become a bank and build up to yourpoint, some of the assets that banks have, that that give them advantages inthe market or you or you choose to partner. I think some are choosing onepath over the other, but I think that models is about right. How do you thinkabout the money center banks in the big banks in this space? I mean it'sinteresting because I think most of them still are investing a lot of money.I mean some people throw around the IT budgets for these guys in the bogles mymind that they're, not, I don't think I can spending them all that well with aHappie, must be doing something. But how do you think about how that changes?How you compete with the big banks, who are still spending really large sums ofit? I think you're right on the fen teck partnership side, but I'm curiousyour thoughts on how the competition with the big guys changes. Listen, I'mnot sure what kind of return they're getting on their investment, butthey're doing a good job, and I hate to...

...admit it. There they've developed goodproducts, they've developed, good experiences. Their technology is, ishard to match in a lot of ways. It's still easy for us, as a community bank,to contrast what we do to what they do right we're in the market. We live inthe market. We know our customers, we have local decision making. So I meanwe compete with the big banks every day and they're good at what they're goodat, but we still like our competitive position as a community back, because Ithink we just we have a different level of trust with our customers. Let's diveinto that a little bit so you talked about you know the assets banks haveand bring to the party that you know will help you either. You know not beas concerned about Fintech, but really bring to a partnership model. How doyou think about the core assets that a bank has in this world and what thevalue they're bringing and things like how to branches plan that things likethat, like? What do you think of those those core values yeah? So to me, Ithink there are three big components and why a customer like select backprice, you know the economics have to Worko. It's got to be convenient andthere's got to be trust and every customer values those three things verydifferently. It's harder, I think, in digital channels to build the trustcomponent, but I think digital channels are really good at the price componentand inconvenience. So so those are pretty strong. The Way I think aboutthe branches is there's still a ton of value in the human touch, and I think Ithink at our company were we're very good at this and we do a good job at it.Our head of retail banking always says that our service model is experiential,so it's something you kind of have to see in person understand it, so wedon't want the branches to completely go away. There are a great opportunityfor us to show cases what what kind of makes us special as a community bank,but the role of the branch has completely changed. Customers go lessoften, but for more important things. They go to get something fixed. They gobecause they're trying to trouble shoot their APPs. They go to get advice or tobuy something, and because branches...

...people don't go quite as often theydon't have to be on every street quarter. Any more customers are willingto go a little further because they're going less often, but they definitelystill want to have access to people, and they want to be able to looksomebody in the eye when they need help with their money. For us there's twobig things that need to happen for this transition to really fully occur. First,we need to get some of the routine transactions out of the branches. Youknow things like depositing checks, otherwise we're going to be we're goingto be too bogged down without to do anything else, and second, we got toelevate the talent within the branches so that they can really be true adviser,customers, and that doesn't happen overnight. You know it's easy to havethat vision as to what it eventually needs to look like, but you know thetrick is trying to execute on that transition over a period of time, whilebalancing what customers, one and quarterly arnings and everything elsethat goes into retail banking. I love that model gym less often, but for moreimportant things. I think that's a great way to describe the role of thebranches in the modern world and then I think the description of fewer, butmaybe a different, trained, more trained staff to handle the morecomplex issues is a really it's a good description of what I've a kind ofroughly heard some people talking about about. What's going on, how do youthink about the time frame for that and the core efforts to have your branchesready to handle that because it does seem like you're kind of in some ways,putting less on the branches but frankly, in some ways putting more onthe employees in terms of they're, not really transactional operational rolesanymore? It's really more of an advisor rule, which is maybe I think, a goalfor branches in the past, but it sounds like it's becoming more of a reality inthe core of the branches role. How do you think about the core steps you haveto take? If somebody agrees with that like? How would you recommend what hesays I, this is how we go about transforming our branches to servethose kinds of needs. Yeah those transitions been happening for for avery long time. You know ten twenty years, so our transition at wisitstarted with going from personal bankers to the universal service model,so that was a big transition for us. Now, it's kind of the next evolution ofthat. Where they're you know going from...

...universal service models to justadvisers, everyone kind of thinks it's going to happen over night, where acouple o years from now there's not going to be branches. I do not believethat I think it's it's going to just be: Let's little transition to thosebranches, just being less. You know, as I said, not on every street corneranymore. So it's been happening a long time. It's going to continue to happen.I most of it's happening through bank consolidations. Every time you see,bank Amene, you know, there's there's a fair amount of closure is just to tryto optimize the network and we've been part of that as well, so it'll be aslow journey. Indeed, now one of the other things I wanted to talk about inthe context of this kind of shift with digital and the different role branchesor maybe playing is how you think about what a bank does to earn, loyalty andthe opportunity to you know. I think one of the core things to the businessmodel is: is selling multiple products to Cosmati a customer interact with youfor multiple products. How do you think about how you earn that? I mean I feellike it used to be. The branch was nearby, so when I needed something,that's where I went and that's how the bank retained that relationship.Obviously that's shifted a little bit. How do you think about the coreelements you have to achieve to earn that kind of loyalty in that multiproduct relationship with a customer today, yeah great question, so it'sdifferent than the branch model right completely different in the digitalworld, as you guys know, probably better than anybody. You got to be easyto deal with. You can't ask for the same information twice: less clicks,optimized for mobile integrations with other APPs people are using and allthose things build value for customers, but, like I said in the past, it'sharder to build the trust component. So I think if you really got a purelydigital channel, you have to be ultra convenient and the price needs to bereally good, and if you can do those do things really well, you can earn crossproduct loyalty even without you know the trust of looking somebody in the I.So I do think it's Potin pigges put, I think it's, I think, maybe one of thethe things we're going to have to learn as an industry how to do effectivelyover the next couple of years how to maintain that level of trustalthough. Itotally agree with your assus and I...

...mean I'm the same way. I want totransact on my phone, but there's certain times. I have questions and Idon't want to look up and at Q. I want to talk to somebody and go. How do I?How do I handle this and that and gen there's a tremendous amount of trustwhen I can turn to somebody and get get a real answer and conversation about amore difficult question, yeah and as a community bank, we have customers thatwant to come in the branch every day we have customers that don't want to talkto anybody. They want to search for banking solutions at three am on theirphone, so we're in a difficult spot because we have to serve. You know thatwide range of customers M. No, it's true that you do and you don't havewhat somebody I think some of the Fentes have relied on, which is youknow, serving a segment of the customer as well. That likes the way theytransact, but you really do have to meet people where they're at which is,you know, a wide variety of starting points and preferences, which is alittle bit more holistic. I think one of the things many pentices don'tappreciate about the challenges banks have is that their customers can be canrun the spectrum in a way. That's not always true for all mine. Only products,so if you don't think manks are becoming software companies andparticularly community banks, regional banks, building their own experiences.It seems like you need a way to get products and market that are new, thatyou're, not developing in house, and I think that kind of leads naturally tothis model of partnerships with FANTEC. So talk to me a bit about how youapproach that how you think about it, what you guys have been doing, becauseI think it's an interesting model, but frankly I love to explore how you do itwell, as I think I think many institutions, I've talked to havestruggled with whether it's diligence processes, implementation, actualexecution of product and market. Those partnerships can be alluring but butchallenging to really execute on it. And so I love to understand both yourstrategy behind where, but how you do it well, because I think that's not anot a widely shared skill set among many institutions at this point sure sowe've been doing lending partnerships for a long time, but we reallycommitted to it starting maybe five years ago, in two thousand and sixteenand the reason for it was we wanted to diversify. The consumer, lendingbusiness or commercial. Ending business was growing at a really great pace, andwe want to be able to keep up with that and hopefully I'll learn a little bitalong the way, because we were seeing...

...everything that that fin texts weredoing, you have to be dedicated to it and you have to dedicate resources toit, and you have to have very clear accountability internally as to who whoowns it. Right now we have bleteth ree partnerships within our consumerlending business. The way we think about it is our court competency. Is helocks? So we do that ourselves. That is our business that we think we should befocused on and we try to get better at that. Every day we do home acuity,installment loans as well, but that's a harder business. It's a little moredifficult, a little more compliant. So we do have a partnership in that spacebecause they are the experts and same thing with student loans. They can betricky. We have a partnership in that space and now one with upstart. So ourstrategy is not to pretend that we're experts and everything and we partnerwhen we think we can create a better experience for customers. I, like thistragedy, talk to me. I thought your stated on dedicated resources anddedicated accountability was really interesting. One of the things I'veseen is the number of different functions and bank that has to getinvolved in these decisions. So I'm curious where you think about when youtalk about dedicated resources where, within the institution do you havededicated resource these kind of partnerships? And where doesaccountability sat I mean I've seen in innovation offices or in the line ofbusiness or somewhere in a corporate strategy group like how do you thinkabout the accountable party and where they sit within the institution andthen how dedicated resources work in the kind of cross, functional teamsthat are involved in the diligence and execution of any kind of partnership.My prior role before retail lending was the head of Corp Development Strategy,so I was part of you know, sourcing and and trying to uncover these thesepartnerships. So I think that's the best way to funnel opportunities, butultimately the business lines have to own it because they're, the ones thatare held accountable for financial results and other things. So it waskind of interesting when we started talking Jeff You- and I I was in thatGorbodoc and it just so happened that my next role was. You know consumerlending, so I went from being like the...

...the beginning of the final to the tothe end of it, which was actually a really great transition. But one of thereasons that we have so many successful partnerships within lending is there'sjust clear accountability. You know that's how we generate loans within ourconsumer lending book outside of Home Equity Loan. So when you have thataccountability and it actually can help, you hit your budgets and gain newcustomers in market, get it done yeah. Do you see any tension in you know so?You're kind of defining the corporate strategy roles you kind of find somestuff, but ultimately, you know owned by the line of business. Do you eversee? Maybe I'll say that tention? What's your your best advice on how youbring those two together, because I can see a world where there's aninteresting partnership, the line of business is not interested, maybe feelsome ownership and hey. We do this. Okay, we want to make it internal. Howdo you manage that cross functionally? Because it's you know you can havedifferently aligned interest or different perspectives between theperson sourcing, a deal or an opportunity and the person whoultimately is going to own the execution of that partnership in theLauder. You work out great for you, you found it and now now you own it, but Ithus imagine that's not always true yeah. I think the best way to handlethat is for corporate development or whatever the strategy arm is to beasking. The business is what they need, so they know what they're looking for.If the need is, you know we're not very big in the sten loan space and we thinkit's an opportunity they can go out and find that if they, if the need is, wethink we can do personal loans better and we can actually bring in newcustomers because of that they go out and try to source opportunity. So it'sgot to be a collaboration and it should start up from. I like this, so you're,almost like a service is arm in some ways from the point of view of of thelines of business who are saying: Hey, here's the needs I have what's outthere in the space as opposed to you have to coming from a top down strategy.Hey here's a thing you need to be doing and consumer. Like good luck. We founda deal for you go execute it. I like that. That makes a lot of sense and I'mcurious. You've got a couple partnerships. How did you think aboutthe areas and consumer lending that were most intriguing or enticing?You've got a pretty wide range with...

Studen London. In being, you know, Iguess very similar, unsecured installment, but kind of pretty lowyields, even home and so home equitan Sama loans, which are kind of similarto the he locks that you have. How did you think about when you were in thatstrategy role, the most interesting categories of stuff that were going onand the products that were maybe most interesting for your customers? Mostinteresting products were the ones that we didn't think we were the best in themarket at so we basically weren't in student lending or where we did verylittle of it. So we wanted the partner with who we thought was the best in thebusiness at the time, personal loans. We did next to none and we saw thegrowth in the industry and we weren't participating in it. So we try to justbe very honest with ourselves about what we're good at and what we're notand partner, where we think it's appropriate excellent. So I want tokind of continue the theme of like so you're. You know you're, not a softwarecompany you're making partnerships, but I imagine there are still core it andinfrastructure assets that you think the bank does need to be investing inin order to be successful in the long term. So how do you think about whatare those kind of institutional or infrastructural investments that makethe most sense for you and how you do spend? You know the IT budgets thatyou're not spending on software development for these new platforms orthese new products like? Where are you investing that you think, makes sensefor the long term sure so we're trying to invest a lot in our back in systemsso we're trying to create better processes around more modern solutions.I think too many digital transformations focus on that front endand especially for lending you end up with an online application that isn'tmuch better than a web one, and then it goes to the same manual process as itwould of if it came in on paper. So we see a lot more value, getting a lotmore value at a better underwriting systems, processing, workflow, cr n,and then we could put on that front end system down the road and it would be atrue digital first solution, that's actually functional, so the other thingwe've found that investment in process have really really positive impacts onemployee engagement M, because our...

...employees can spend less time when ontedious, workflow work and more time on the fun stuff, helping customersimproving other parts of the business. So that's been our focus interesting. Iwould question all about. I think it's a very smart strategy to be. To behonest, I c the Front end the web form like not that sophisticated, but howyou can turn that into an experience is a lot about back end. I'm curious howyou're approaching or if you have any advice, on kind of unifying datainfrastructure internally, because one of the things I do find is you canfocus on back in, but if it's siloed, then your ability to serve a product, acustomer cross product or for your banker to have a holistic view can bechallenging or even just to do like a marketing analyst on the value of acustomer relationship. If I've got three different systems that are on theback end, how do you think about that need to be? You know well designed fors specific product versus having the ability to have kind of fully crossinstitution view of a client we launched what we call our deliverytransformation, which is major investment technology and datainfrastructure, maybe two or three years ago- and you know part of thatwas- was front and investments to improve men, cusper experience, butmajor part of it was what we call infrastructure, mainly data in thestructure which is multi er process, major investment lots of work, but it'snot the it's not the most interesting investment. You can make right. It'snot something that pays. It pays for itself in a year or two years, and it'sdefinitely not easy, so we've been at it for a long time we're starting tomake progress on that front, we're trying to supplement it with cormynsand other things to really bring that together, but I would just say it'sit's hard and we're working through it and the value will will calm down theroad right, especially as we end up putting a really good front andsolutions on on our infrastructure, because then they actually arefunctional. One more question on this: How do you think about getting that?How does the institution get on board with making that kind of investmentthat pays off in the long term, but...

...maybe not the short, its maybe of thehardest problems and investments in general and technology investments inparticular. Is it's easy to optimize for what I can get some value in mynext PL planning, my quarterly results, someone to put money there and not thestuff that is really transformational over a multi, your time frame. How doyou think about making those decisions and getting the institution on work? Ithink it's a place. A lot of people fall down and you end up. You knowoptimizing for the short run and missing the longer term trends that arereally important. So we have a. We have a pretty good discipline of doing athree year strategic plan, obviously every three years and we meet with theour entire board and Executive Management Team for multiple days,offsite to figure out what our strategy is and and our deliver transformationstarted there. So it started with complete by and from the board anexecutive management team as to what we were doing and some of thoseinvestments, like you said, don't have quick payback so the key to it,especially for a public company. That's got quarterly earnings and things likethat is just to commit to it and communicate it and communicate thatevery constituent you have from associates employees to customers toinvestors and continue to show progress to the board. But everybody from top tobottom has to be committed to it. I like a commit to it and communicate. SoI don't know if you prepon that phrase, but that's a nice little mice, littlephrase I had to get it done so the next thing I wanted to talk about a littlebit was you know, what's the biggest challenge you guys at face in the lastyear as an institution and talk people bit like how you approached it, what itwas, how you approached it? What results you've seen it's been achallenging year on many fronts. I imagine blesset me think. Let me thinka couple Hams there so PPP sure, a lot of bankers have said this. Especiallythe first round of PPP was was a huge challenge for banks. Our company was nodifferent. T is limited guidance changed every day. Customers were goingcrazy manual processes, the systems crashed every day. It was crazy, but atthe same time probably the most rewarding thing myself or any of my coworkers have really ever been part of...

A. I think everyone who works inbacking knows how important it is, what we do for customers or communities, butnonetheless, the reputation of banking is kind of been on a decline for forsome time. So PPP was a really cool opportunity for for US bankers to stepup and more directly help people during a time of need. That's that'sinteresting. I definitely had heard PPP as a challenge, but this sense ofreconnecting to the mission in the community through that effort is it. Ihadn't heard that before makes sense, because it was certainly a chance forthe industry to step up and really help help out, and I think it wentremarkably well were you guys happy with how it went in the end I mean itseems like, despite all the challenges in the end, people were able todistribute funds, help out businesses and really make a difference curious.If you had any thought yeah, we were happy. I think. Most importantly, ourcustomers were happy and- and it worked, I mean ehealth results across you knowall banking were saved because of that customers received and jobs were saved,and it really was a successful program. It was broad and it was big, but diddid its job. It did do ultimately achieve the results that were desiredof it. That's a despite that the challenge is an execution, that's greatand then the last thing before I get into my my final three questions is: Isthere anything you've executed on recently that you've been surprised bythe results of, or that kind of you know you weren't, expecting quite whatyou got yeah again not. This is not unique to us, it's actually not in tobanking at all, but we were really surprised by how well the transition ofworking from home when, obviously there were the plenty of challenges. Thosechallenges still exist today, but we had done drills in the past to test orour remote war ability and they went okay at best right, but I think thisreally just highlighted our ability to adapt and innovate when we had to. Iremember back, you know one of the early days of the Pandemic Guard CEOsaid to me: People hate change, but they have a remarkable ability to adapt,and I think that shine through here now...

...we're finally starting to come back tothe office a little bit in person that more change that people have a widerange of opinions on, but overall has gone pretty well so far, are youexpecting any permanent shifts in your work strategy? If you guys not decidedyet what you're going to if you're going to make any more permanent shifts?I think every company is struggling with some of the thems better. Some ofthis seems worse. How do we balance what we liked and what we didn't withthe kind of need to get back to something some, you know resemblingnormal and obviously, banking insitutions have a more substantialchallenge and the branches maybe fewer but they're, not you know to be an inpersonal interaction. You got to be in the branch, so I'm curious if you'vegot any long term perspective on what you're going to do or ship because ofthe experiences you've had. I think the world's changed and clearly there'sgoing to be things about how we work together, that that will be differentin the future, but we have tried to avoid making bold declarations aboutwhat our companies got to look like going for we're not we're not going tobe a hundred percent remote everwe're, not saying everybody's back five days aweek. You know tomorrow, so we're trying to really learn and and stayflexible, because things are changing every day and we're still trying tolisten to what you know our associates are telling US yeah. I think that maybe smart. I know some of the silicon vally companies have made boldproclamations about what they're doing and then secondary bold proclamationabout how they're changing the bold proclamation they made six weeks ago.So I think we are still all trying to feel out what the real future feelslike an what the right answer is, so maybe a little bit of prudence and waitand see make sense all right. In the last thing, I've got Jima. I think yousaw these in advance, so hopefully you're prepared, but I always like toend these conversations with the same kind of three questions. So I'll becurious, your answers and the first of them is what's the single best piece ofcareer vice you've ever gotten, so I was told pretty early my career tolisten more than I talk. I try to live live up to that, but you know far fromperfect on it and not just about the ratio of how much you talk versus you,listen, but really the quality and how...

...people listen to each other. I thinkall too often, especially in business, storing meetings and otherconversations, people are so busy. Thinking about the next thing, they'regoing to say that they're barely listening to what the other peoplearound them or are saying, and I really think that listening is a skill and itmakes you a better employee, but I think it definitely makes you a bettermanager better leader, like that was once told you have two years and onemouth use them accordingly. Ah, it is a hard one for me, but I like it and Iwill say one of the things I find that feels awkward when you do it, but I'mimpressed when I see it is that pause when somebody has clearly beenlistening, hasn't thought of what they're going to say and is processingand going give me a second to like think about this. I Want I want torespond, but I I haven't got it because all too often you're immediately ready,because you haven't really been paying attention side yeah. Absolutely. I likethat piece of advice. So how about this piece of advice? You've gotten aboutthe consumer, lending industry or business. So this going back to how wehandle partnerships, but my predecessor in retail lending said to me that it'smuch easier to disrupt a product that you're not already successful it. So wethat we basically weren't in the student loan business when we decidedto disrupt them partner in that space. When we part our partner with upstart,we were doing next to nothing and unsecure loads. So relatively easy, weweren't risking a whole lot. I think it's going to be a lot harder topotentially disrupt the business where we're generating lots of assets andnook returns and if we think it makes a ton of sets in the long run, there'sgoing to be a lot more push back on on that type of initiative. Do you haveany advice on how to do that, and I think this is a kind of the classicinnovators dilemma that you can make the right choice for your business interms of maintaining and keeping doing the thing, that's generating the incomewhen maybe you're missing the train on the thing, that's going to totallyshift it. So I agree with you, but at the end, maybe you do want to shiftwhether it's a mortgage business or a commercial real estate business. Youneed to innovate in those spaces that the driver do you have any advice orany thoughts on how you actually do that in the end, so I think it goesback to when we made technology...

...investments. I think you've got to getfull commitment from everybody and you've got to communicate it other thanthat it s it s. It will be a challenge. Challenges are always fun there, butthey will make the make the job interesting right. Yeah in my lastquestion, do you have a bold prediction about the future for US yeah? So Ithink it's inevitable at this point that big tech is going to get intolending, still probably in some sort of partnership with traditional banksyou're already starting to see it with Amazon getting into working capitalones, Google and others are making really really big venture investmentsin de Fente. I ultimately see them getting in some of the more complexproducts. I think it'll depend a lot of on regulators and their appetite so toallow them into the space, and I could be rolins. I don't see any of these bigtech companies wanting direct regulatory supervision from any of ourregulators, but I think they're going to find a way it. Just why I mean thenature of bull predictions is that you could be wrong. Otherwise, Ayre, notbold enough yeah. You may make a prediction out how you think anthersthe space first man, I think you see Amazon, certainly playing around theedges with some of their business. Google has the Google pay AP and anumber of you know financially oriented assets where obviously a lendingbusiness could could easily fit. You want to make a Mont a prediction onwhich of the big guys gets in, or probably your old, my old employer. youthink Google well Google, if you're listening, you know, call me up if youwant some o o how to do that. I, like I, like Jim's prediction, we're happy tohelp you out, but I think you're probably right about this space, and Idon't know the regulatory landscape will be interesting for these guysbecause they are clearly facing more scrutiny from existing regulators, letalone if they came in and had to deal with some of the financial pridingregulators, but it may be a muscle there they're having to build any wayand they may decide to exercise it in different ways. Once they're, you know,obviously spend a lot of money on their presence in Washington. So big tech andlending Jim's, bold prediction, Jim I'm gonna, bring it back and figure outthat if you were right about this one, I have a feeling. It's not a bad bet.Well, Jim appreciate, you're comingg on...

...to day this was a great conversation. Ithink a lot of a lot of interesting things and you got a lot of littletidbits, less people coming to the branches left often but for moreimportant things and commit early and communicate oft, and I think some greatgreat pieces of advice, and I really appreciate the conversation. This wasfun. Thank you for a me up. Star partners with banks and credit unionsto help grow their consumer Lon portfolios and deliver a modern alldigital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitallysavvy. It only makes sense that their bank does to up starts a islandingplatform, uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accuratelyidentify risk and approve more applicants than traditional kind ofmodels which Brad rates near zero upstarts. All digital experiencereduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenientexperience for consumers, whether you're looking to grow and enhance yourexisting personal and auto in and programs or you're just getting startedup star can help upstart offers an into in solution that can help you find morecredit worthy borrowers within your risk profile with all digitalunderwriting on boarding, loan closing and servicing. It's all possible withupstart in your quarter, learn more about finding you borrowers, enhancingyour credit decision, ing process in growing your business by visitingupstart for Dash Banks, that's upstart for Dash Banks, you've been listeningto leaders and lending from upstars make sure you never miss an episodesubscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player usingapple podcast leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars. Youthink the show deserves thanks for listening until next time. The viewsand opinions expressed by the host and guests on the leaders and lendingpodcast are their own, and their participation in this podcast does notimply an endorsement of such views by their organization or themselves. Thecontent provided as for informational purposes only and the discussionbetween the host and guests should not be taken as financial advice bycompanies or individuals.

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