Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode · 3 months ago

How Fintech Partnerships Can Propel Consumer Lending

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In modern banking, survival depends on meeting the needs of the modern consumer, whether that’s through digital transformation or through new products and services. But many banks don’t have the capabilities or the resources to manage that on their own. That’s where fintech partnerships can really help move the business forward.

In this episode, Barry Cooper, Chief Sales Officer at First Federal Bank of Kansas City, shares his insights into fintech partnerships and how they helped his company enter the unsecured consumer lending space.

Barry is an educator, innovator, marketer, and sales leader with a background in cybersecurity and technology before landing in banking. He oversees all lines of business and the go-to-market strategy in his current role. First Federal Bank of Kansas City was founded in 1934 and works primarily as a mortgage lender. It has 11 branches in the Greater Kansas City area.

We discuss:

- How the pandemic affected consumer lending offerings

- Implementation costs, process, and lending product strategy

- Gaining internal buy-in for fintech partnerships and partnership expectations

- How FFBKC originates loans digitally to acquire more borrowers

Link to Webinar Recording with resource materials https://info.upstart.com/ffbkc-webinar 

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Welcome to leaders in lending I'm yourhost Jeff Keltner this week were featuring a conversation I recently hadduring a webinars with Berry Cooper from First Federal Bank of Kansas City,and this is a little different format since it was originally recorded as aWeben ar, but I think the conversation is really interesting or the audience.We really talk with Barry about how they chose to enter the unsecuredconsumer lending market, how they chose a partner to do that. What thatimplementation process was like and then also some of the results they'veseen including credit performance through the most recent economic stressbought on by the ovid nineteen pandemic. So for anybody interested in thatcategory, it's a really interesting conversation. It is a webinarsoriginally. So there is a little bit of Quana a little bit of back and forth,and a few visuals that we can link to in the show notes, but I think it'll bea really interesting conversation enjoy. You are listening to leaders andlending from upstart a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders,grow their programs and improve their product offerings each week. Herdecision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of thelending industry best practices around digital transformation in one let's getinto the show. Thank you, everybody for joining us. Ithink we're planning to have a fun and interactive dialogue today betweenBarry and I barry thank you for joining us. I appreciate your participating.Why don't you start us off and just give us a quick intra on who you areand who first Federal Bank of Kansas City is. You Bet I'm very cooper on thechief sales officer at first Federal Bank of Kansas City, I've been in theroll about about eighteen months. My background is primarily incybersecurity and technology. I've worked for fish net security and Optin,and then fish tech group for coming to the bank. So first federal is veryinteresting. You know the wise story of for first federal and me goes way back.My parents got their first loan at first Federal Bank for Federal Bank'sbeen around since about one thousand nine hundred and thirty four, and wereprimarily a mortgage lender. THAT'S OUR DNA! We have about eleven branch wos inthe Greater Kansas City area as well, so a significant nationwide mortgagelending opportunity with us and about, like, I said, eleven branches in ourretail, so I'm responsible for all of our lines of business, whether it youknow the mortgage lending consumer, landing retail banking as well as or goto market strategy. So I oversee our marketing as well. So you knowfundamentally I'd say you know that I that I'm a herd and that's kind ofwhere I come from that's my background. You know the bank had a great year, asyou can see on this screen in two thousand and twenty we and our bestyear ever I'd like to say and take responsibility for all of that. Butthat's not necessarily the case. You know. One thing: That's unique is aboutfirst vitals, the way we give back to our community to and we're verydedicated to homeownership and to helping communities prosper, that'swhat we do and then you know finally I'll just say that you know being aKansas City. Cheese Fan has been a little rough for the past couple ofmonths and so that that loss is kind of kind of stinging still, so I'm reallyexcited to be with you today Jeff to talk about this important topic andback over to you, sir. Thank you and I'll give it quick in trop. For me,since will be having this conversation together. My name is Jeff Kelner in theSPP of business development. At I'M START I've been here for closing in onalmost ten years. I think that I've been here up starts since there aboutfive people, so I've kind of seen the whole evolution in the quick historyand upstart. You know we found in two thousand and twelve really focus onproviding technology to banks and credit unions, but will obviously focuson banks today that enable the origination of consumer loans,particularly unsecured consumer loans and auto loans. You know we're, sothat's really the core focus of what we do, working with banks like a BC andthen the others, and I we went public late last year so has been. It's beenactually been an obviously a great ride for us over the last couple of years,so I can't give you recent numbers, I'm prohibited from giving you anythingafter Q, three o Tounda, but you know, banks on the platform had originatednearly eight billion dollars as of that time, and we really focus on helpingbanks and prove credit decision improve the digital processing. So we canreduce friction. You can see here. Seventy percent of loans thatoriginated by our bank partners are fully automated with no manual review.We do that with very low fraud rates and so kind of applying a imshilearning to how we can actually help people originate. Consumer credit. Thisis really the core of what we do so on to stop the screen sea. We're not goingto do a big slide presentation today we're going to make this an interactivedialogue. I do have some visuals if we have particular topics, but you know ifagainst the Antennaes, you have questions, shoot them on in the QN orin the chat, and we will do our best to cover those as well as as the questionsI have prepared. No me just start with this berry. He gave us a littlenormally asked you about Jiro's chief sales officer, because it's nottypically a role that I see in banks or at least not, then a very common title.How do you think about you know what the real responsibility is, that roleare and how it compares to what maybe more typical titles are at a differentinstitutions? Yeah. You know, I think, the CS role. You know in Cyber Securitywhere I came from it was very common to have a chief revenue officer chiefsales officer. In the back I mean that's, that's pretty common, but forthe bank and for you know, banking and...

...general, you know, I don't see the rolevery much, but I think it's a rule that is that is worth pursuing, and I thinkas well in my opinion here is that if you roll up, you know all the lines ofbusiness and you integrate that tightly with your marketing team. You just getlike a scale and you get efficiency there and you get, and you also get youknow each of the teams not pointing fingers you're all working for the samegoal as well. So I think you know organizations that aren't utilizingthat role or don't have that role in place. I think they'd be well wellsuited well suited for banking, not just cyber security technology,etcetera got it interesting. So I ll start with this. We started workingtogether to launch an unsecure consumer London program that F T BC a while ago,pre pandemic, and I think we'll have to talk about what the pandemic is done tothat business and where we've gone since then, but I'm really curious justkind of what it was that made. You think this was an area of lending thatthe bank wanted to get into and why that was an important area for you topursue yeah. That's that's a great question, and that is the questionright. I think overall, for us you know like like any bank and again I'm not anaccountant, but you know we need to. You know,diversify our earning assets. I mean we just needed to do that, and you know ifwe're truly about what we say we're about in our MV and our mission, visionand values to help communities prosper. We didn't have anything here right. Wedidn't have anything in this space, so we wanted to diversify our assets andstrategically we wanted to begin engaging fin tax as well. I think it'spart of our strategic plan we just saw- and we see where bankings going, andone of the reasons I'm here now with the technology background, is to helpshepherd that so part of my role is also you know, kind of playing the COlight roll a little bit as well. So when we go into these engagements withpen text or someone with some experience and with some sales acumenthat can kind of colorless and bring those two things together so for us youknow we saw this ability to grow earning assets and it just fit into ourstrategic plan of trying to engage. You Know Ben text more delivereddeliberately, rather than just a one off and not intentionally yeah. Thatmakes a lot of sense. I'm actually. So we're also going to try to keep this alittle bit interactive today with the pull. So I'm curious for the audienceat tend es here. How many of you are in the personal loan space, or maybe there,but I think at what I hear from many banks as we have it, but you know it'sa product that officially is on the shelf, but maybe not of any scale orscope. So gonna see if we can launch a pull here and have the audience tell us.You know, where is your personal lending business today is its somethingyou don't do. Is it something you're in, but not really relevant portion of thebusiness or something you're actually relatively invested in? I will say:Let's so I'm going to throw a little commentary. All were waiting that it'syou know. One of the things that's been interesting, as we've gotten into thespace is to see that it's one of the fastest growing categories of lendingin the consumer space really outstripping he locks in Otto, not froma total scale, although it is now larger than than he locks, but from agrowth point of view. It's really where I think a lot of growth has happenedover the last couple of years, going to go ahead and close. The pull out andwe'll share the results at everybody so looks like this is kind of kind of.What I would say is typical in my experience, some people who don't haveit some banks. You know the bast majority of banks, at least here today,have it, but of almost probably very small scale compared to the balancesheet over all and then a couple o Le e, a who the three are that have a largeand growing port folio, but that certainly we'd love to see to see morepeople in that category. So my second question for you, Barry is, is youlooked at? You know fin tax and getting into the personal lending in particular.What was it about the program that we were able to construct together? Thatwas compelling to you in terms of working with upstart versus other ways.You could you know. Other FINTAC relationships are other ways you couldget into that. You know the the person loing space and just for clarificationwhen I say personal ones. I had a question on this from the audience:We're really talking about unsecured consumer debt right, so not auto loans,not mortgages or he locks, but that unsecured debt and for those lessfamiliar the majority of the loans that space today are credit cardconsolidation. So you got a lot of people who are taking credit card debtand rolling it on to a term loan, usually three or five year fixed,usually up to fifty, maybe twenty five and dollars is a largest loan, moretypically ten or twelve thousand and then a variety of other use cases. Wecan talk about this to Berry. Were you see people doing some home improvements,taking a vacation buying inset of furniture punting, a wedding things ofthis nature, where this kind of a large expense and they're choosing not to putit on a traditional revolving cre credit, but to borrow specifically tothe installment, but back to the questions you thought about gettinginto that space? How did you think about how to do it? And what about theupstart partnership made that an appealing way for you guys to enter themarket yeah? I think you know for first fatal bank, I mean we're a communitybank in the middle of the United States, Kansas City Missouri. We don't have alot of capability to grow new products and services ourselves. We, you know,that's a struggle for us. We don't have a deep technology bench at the time wewere really outsourcing the majority of our marketing before I came on board,so we didn't ve really have control of...

...our messaging and we didn't have a welldefined a refined, Le Generation capability at all right, so underneathin that environment were like how do we? How do we get into this market so andthen why upstart right so for us, it was like what we need. Our Turn Kopportunities right to be able to build it ourselves. We're just like that is athat's a bridge too far, we're just not going to be able to do it in time. Youknow under budget or even on budget, and and we don't- we really have thatkind of expertise to do that. So you know I think, for us it was that right.We we needed a turn. Key solution is something we could get to marketquickly with, so we didn't have that bench and then we're also. You knowwhen you talk about partnerships, we look for strong partnerships and thatgenerally Belin, you know, begins with people right and when we begin toengage, we looked around the market a little bit for what we wanted. We foundyou know, upstart had a turn key opportunity. There was a couple ofothers we looked at then we started engaging the people at upstarting. Forme, you know I'm from the Shometin I'm from the Missouri Right. So you know webelieve in you know this. This interaction is this really kind of hightouch high quality, transparency right and that's what was offered so I thinkyou know we had this desire, we're looking for a turn key solution. Wefound a partner that had the right type of attitude about a partnership andthat made it easy. So hopefully I answered that question, but that was it.You know the people that upstart that I've dealt with are just passionate anddedicated about what they do and and if I come from the tech world, I'm lookingfor people who care right and they're going to stand behind their product andthey're going to help us again when we can't help ourselves, which was reallyimportant but I'll just say. Likewise. We always look for good bank partnersthat are that have similar values objectives and I think the consumeroriented focus tore getting the right product of the consumers. It really ishelpful to them. It's one of those things. That's we love to see partnersthat are they're aligned around that mission, so you mentioned being fromthe show me state, and I know we showed you a lot before we got live, but youknow what a what have we shown you since you've gone in like how is theyou know this program performed for you? Can you give us any sense of the scaleand then how the credit performance has been or kind of just the overallobjectives you had and whether or not you're being able to meet those yeah? Iwould you know I'm a former school teacher as well, so I always gradereally severely right. You know I'm a technology guy, so I'm a low, biasedright. So I'm generally like very skeptical, but I mean this has been.You know above the expectations and I'm not just saying it because I'm on theWethera today it just does really work for us right and it just it and reallyyou know it kind of had to right. We, we don't have a lot of options like Isaid so. You know we have all the volume we can handle the return and theyou know the Ra, and all of that is even in a pandemic. That has been justcrazy. You know we were expecting. You know, we would see a bunch of lossesand you know we would have to really pivit and really rethink what we'redoing with upstart. That has not been the case. I mean I was just from a guy,a cyber security guy who looks up risk a lot as well. The performance wasoutstanding, so as far as origination production quality, all of those thingshave been met and exceeded. So it's been. It's been awesome yet now justremind me Berry- and we got this question to s as well. When did youactually go live into into production like? When did you start actuallyoriginating? We started originating okay? I knew you were going to ask me aquestion with a date. What's your things, I can't remember it's. I thinkwe're close to two years now how about that I'll go with that. We're reallyclose, I think, to our our two year anniversary. I believe so somethinglike to two thousand and nineteen. If I right right, my mental math works rightin yours. So clearly, clearly we had, we had a good run, pre pandemic, andthen you know I chanced to build up some history. Then you know obviouslysome some continued production throughout the pandemic. Let's justtalk about them. Men, obviously, in March of last year, were coming up on.I think Friday the thirteenth is when my kids were sent home in two thousandand twenty from there you know last day have in person school before kind ofthe world changed. How is that shifted? Your thinking about went off to talkjust about the upstart program, but you know how is the bank responding to that,particularly from the consumer? One of you, because I know that for commercialending and things like that, it's may be somewhat less disruptive in certainways from the process, at least, but that a lot of consumer lending was brinbranch or handed and now you've. Obviously, those are not open, and soyou really have to think about. What are we doing to respond to? The realityis imposed on us by the current public health situation. Yeah, that's great, Imean you know who knew you know that that the corona virus would be. Youknow this severe and it would impact you know society the way it has- andyou know, hey t, O thousand and twenty good riddens right, I'm so dumb withthis as well. But for us I will just say: it's really violently acceleratedour digital transformation right. It really had to. I mean you know a smallcommunity bank in Midwest t. You know...

...that. Has this dedication to you knowour consumers, as you know, as all institutions do, but you know again now,suddenly we can't service anyone in a ranch. You know we can wave it youthrough the drive through and we can you socially distance there. So wedidn't even have any technology to be able to set meetings or anything likethat. So some of the things we did immediately was we filled. Those gapswere like: We've got to get some appointment. Setting technology set up,we've got to be able to handle it in branch to be able to socially justiceproperly and still engage our customers right practically on the marketing side.Right, when I look at it, I see you know we were a very traditionalinstitution: Hey if it's not on a billboard. We can't build an artifact.It can't be a white paper. Maybe a log with those are digital. So I'm not surewe really. You know trust that it wasn't that type of advertising, thenwe probably were averse to it. That is nolonger the case I mean all of our digital channels. Now are just superimportant to us and we're investing in all of those. If you think, if you knowchat, bought technology of whatever ilk, you want to use on your website or yourweb previse presence. We had to pivot and be able to do that quickly. So youknow again shifting our impensis from kind of traditional marketing tacticsto digital marketing tactics has been huge, and I think you know Jeff for usis like what's going to be the new normal when we do come out of this, ourbranch is going to be as relevant as they used to be right. Now these arequestions were really wondering about. You know sure a lot of people you knowkind of flooded the bank with deposit. Some were grateful for that, and wewant to put all that to work. But, but still you know, what is it going tomean for society? What is it going to mean for our customers long term? Asfar as you know, the upstart relationship during the pandemic, Imean it was kind of like let's go, it was like business as usual, and youknow there. You know you as the pandemic kind of took off. We saw youknow we saw some some things that could have been potential risks as we werelooking at the Boalia. Those didn't manifest. Those just flattened rightout, just in the way that the folks said they would, you know more or lessand and then it's been business as usual right. So hopefully I got to thecrux of it, but I mean it's really we're trying to determine what's thenew normal digital transformations here to stay, I'm the champion for that atthe bank as well and now so we are really attacking that as an institutionlobstick and Beryl yeah, I'm curious did you did you make shifts from aconsumer lending point of view? And again you can talk about the upstartprogram and we have to have a couple questions about specific to the programthat we can get to. But I'm curious for you tightening credit scores, limitinglanding like how did you think about limiting your risk atical? I know wewent through a period and probably April may have last. It was reallyscary when the when the enemy met numbers are really high and I thinklots of people were trying to think like what do we do and and then, how isyour kind of thinking shift that as we've got into the island, we call itthe new normal necessarily in the tailend, but we certainly are not inthat moment when were there seven hundred thousand filings a week andunemployment and we were all you know, kind of fun the edge of our seats aboutwhat was coming next? How did you think about you know managing your consumerlending port flight in that time and then and then how you kind ofnormalized as you come out of it, you know not out of it but to something ofa more stable position than we were in you know a year ago, yeah I mean youknow, and you know just you know transparently. You know we were kind ofscared to death, just like everyone else when everyone has got alonesuddenly is unemployed. That generally doesn't vote well for the future right.So you know we were tracking, all of that and we actually reduced. You knowwha for a while our production levels with that start we're like we don'tknow where this is going to go, Yep and- and so you know, we reduced him for alittle while and we're like this still working this. This is still working asadvertised and we're still producing and the risk is there and we're stillgetting returned. So we just went right back to that current level I mean inthe good news, is even in the pandemic, without the pandemic, of course runningits course fully we doubled down as well. So you know we didn't just say:okay, we're scared for a minute. We're going to back off did that the shipwrite it. If you will to a certain extent, we went back to our previousproduction levels and now we're doubling that and we're evenconsidering more as we come up in the end of Kon. In twenty one, you know, Ithink, that's kind of just the key up, there's a story that Bosh could takeaway. I think it is just consistency of there that production levels asexpected risk mitigation is quality. The automated decision and the creditdecision ing is what you say it will be, which makes it easy for me to go aheadand go and say: Okay, you know I'm going to take this to the board ofdirectors and we're going to provide me yeah. The mix is I'm going to stop fromIT and lost we've had another question which is kind of I'm curious for theaudience, because it maybe we respond to the results are a little bit very.But what have you done? I'm the lances pull now, but from a consumer lendingpoint of view, how have you you stopped if you slowed down if you raise creditscore requirements to you raise rates? What's the response Ben I'll, launchthat to the group and see if we get...

...what kind of feedback we get? Icertainly we saw the same thing and frankly, on the lender side, even wesaw both on the linter side and on the capital market side, a real pulled backfrom capital, particularly in that kind of March April may time frame of lastyear, and then you know some returns as we all things reaching a more normallevel. But it's been great, and I was going to ask this because this questioncame in through the the audience. What was the experience like working withupstart through the you know? What are we going to do? How do we tighten? Dowe slow down? Do we speed up like how did you feel like we were able tosupport you through that kind of period of really unpressed and uncertainty interms of what needed to be done? Yeah, that's that's a great question. I meanyou know inside Er security. We always talk about fear, uncertainty and doubtright, and there was a Plethra of that going on at the time.So the approach that upstart cook and continues to take- and one of thereasons I love this relationship- is that you know it's very strong oncustomer success and transparency. So you know we're all sick to death ofzoom meetings. You know I am too I'm like everyone else, I'm sick of them aswell, but what upstart and what the folks that we deal with did was theymade sure we on a regular meeting? Cavens Hey, you know like we weremeeting every week and you know I'm like. Oh my God. Can we just maybe dothis once a month or something like that instead, but during this duringyou know, I'm grateful that you know that dedication to customer success,which I don't see a lot of firms have, is built into your DNA and that made it.You know we were always close right and in times of combat you want. You knowyou want your soldiers right next to you to the right and to the left. Ifyou will- and so I think, you know- that that approach of having regularcadence of meetings being transparent about what you're saying beingproactive, even saying, Hey, we're starting to see this, are you allnoticing it as well in other areas that just that fug that fear uncertainty indoubt right that lowered the temperature there for us and and gaveus you know kind of the? I guess you would say the level of of just comfort that we needed. So youknow, I think, that's kind of the story through that and now up starcommunicated back to us and did it it a level that made us very comfortableyeah. You might have found the weeklies in tens pair, but I was in dailymeetings with our executive team and credit credit monitoring team. Lookingat the reports, the economic data, and then I think we were. I was sitting ata weekly message to you guys about what we were seeing that you know not justin your portfolio but in our our overall platform a jot. A is a lot oflender. So we could. We could see broader industry trends and kind ofproduct, wide trends that we were hoping beable to share and give youguys some sense not just of what was happening in your portfolio. But whatwas that? What we were seeing in the industry rit large and how we couldthink about that yeah? So in real, quick deaf, even though I was like hey,you know, we don't want all this communication, we valued it after thefact right I mean so. You know as much as I kind of griped at the beginningthere about all the zoom calls. It was just critical during that time. Sosorry interrupt, but when not so good, so I'm going to share the results ofthat pole and it's I guess about what I don't know. If you have any reactionsthis very, but I think it's it's kind of. We saw a lot of people slowing downsome people, stopping consumer lending and then what I would all of the aboveoption on you know. Rotating risk like raise credit, core requirements, may beraise prices a little bit and then I think the thing you mentioned that I'veheard fomebody is like whatever our ten year five year, digital transformationplan was it's now a two year, digital transformation process to go gettingthere. So I think that that kind of matches we did get a couple ofquestions specifically about your program from from the audience, so wejust take. These are the originations you're doing local to Kansas City or ayou going farther afield to a broader audience? What's your what's been yourapproach in building his portfolio? Yeah, that's that's a great question. Imean for us again, you know all community bank, we don't you knowoutside of our mortgage lending, which we are. You know on a leverage more aswell. We couldn't originate in any other state, except for Missouri andKansas, so with upstart we're taking originations from anywhere right,that's huge for us. I mean you know we're in our own backyard. We do reallywell here, but if we want to grow and do the things that we want to do is aninstitution, we need a product and we need partners that can help us extendour reach and that's what happened there. So, hopefully that's a goodanswer to that question, but I mean that yeah, that's what we did yeah andthe only thing I'll I did that for people's knowledges. We do allow ourlending partners to either choose a geography if they want to stay within afootprint that they've been located in. That's great they're welcome to do thatand obviously can limit the volume, depending on how small a geography youwant, but we have nationwide demand that we've that we have seen coming infor loans that we can help you utilize and then we do have partners like aAtbk S. they're looking at this is a way to expand, maybe beyond theirtraditional footprint and build a you know, build a more nationwide port Filothat might be very hard for them to do. absentness like this, so you know it'skind of a choose. Your own adventure. If you will, in terms of how you wantto do that, but but both are possible, yeah and Yep real quick, just add on alittle bit more as we saw unemployment...

...numbers come in during the pandemic,we're looking at all of the ars we're taking up start loans from so we'relike. Where is you know what? Where are the hot spots? If you will and do wewant to take originations from there or not? And so you know again, you know wehad the transparency to be able to do that. We have the capability luckily todo that internal, and that was just important to keep that the relationshipclose for sure yep absolutely, and we do have a question and tell me if youwant to skip this one or I can talk about a bit. But what's your loss,history been for the product like how's, the have the losses looked andobviously two years into a originations of three and five year: loans you're,not at full maturity for the portfolio. But what's your history been in in thelost perspective? Again, you know I'm going to just have to beg the and playthe UNINNOCENT card here again kind of a to a certain extent, but but thelosses have been you know with their expectations. I think you know ifupstart has kind of, if you could share, you know what what you're seeing jeffdo ride in line with that. So we're right in line with what the industry isshowing yeah and I just say, generally the loss estimates for any given lenderthat we work with or otherwise is really something they control right. Weone of the things we really work with for our partners is to use the machinelearning models. We have to estimate the risk of a bar work and then allowthem to specify how risky of a long port flater they would like, and so weyou know we have on the widest spectrum lenders. You might see something likeeight percent annualized losses, and then we have lenders down at the two orthree percent range, so obviously able to serve a smaller set of borrowersbecause it's there. But the key thing, I think, is that we can help. Youpredict the risk of each loan and therefore the portfolio price, the riskand then take whatever slice of that risk. Properly price you're comfortablewith Ye. As I said, we have partners that are very broad spectrum in termsof the risk they're willing to take when properly price, and we have otherother lenders who say I don't want anything. It's RISCA want a threepercent loss portfolio. I don't care how much you price the risk, your stuff,it's just not in my in my wheel house, and so that's really something eachlender Kis to control. In the context of our program. I think you can broadlydo with credit parameters, so I will say in the context of unsecured lending.Traditional credit metrics are not great predictors of default, and so youreally, I think, a lot of the special capability. There is in reallyunderstanding the risk at a lone level. That did you no credit score and TIsimple metrics wont will get you a little bit of the way, but they'llthey'll leave a lot of people out and the last question I had hear about yourprogram specifically, Barry was, but with the start up coster. What was theprocess to get live? WAS THAT YEA? How long did it take? What was the expenseinvolved in actually getting from you mentioned speed to mark? It is one ofthe critical factors and deciding to go this route. What did that really looklike for you yeah? That's that's another great question I mean you knowfor us. You know we had to kind of rally. You know some some folks thatmaybe were not in their comfort zone to get in there cutting their cuper zonehere. So you know the start up cost for us, where I think, really kind of verylow. You know when I, when I think of things in technology, I think of youknow the PP that people processes and technology- and we had all of that. SoI mean the startup was you know really for us was the will to take a chanceand do it right. So you know the startup cost for us for nil, more orless I mean very low from and I to be transparent as well. I'm not the onewho actually instituted the program, so I'm going to say that there was reallythe little very little cost on the up side. It was more kind of time andmaterial. We had to get the right people in the right seats to to manageit. So I think you know and maybe Jep. This is an area where you could helpanswer as well. For us, I think it was minimal to really ver to nothing to getmoving yeah. I think that's common and, I will say typically the longestlongest pole in the tent, for this is often the diligence process andreviewing all you know. Obviously the upstart platform. This case isrepresenting you know, rates to consumers, things that nature forgetting through. That review typically is longer than launch. We've certainlyseen partners. Do it in a handful of months on both the review and theimplementation? We try to make that as as quick as possible, we can get peopleup and running in sixty or ninety days, where they're able to move quickly. Sothat's certainly our goal with these programs a couple of questions, so wetalked about the kind of demand that upstart springing. Is this somethingyou're presenting to your customers or? How are you thinking about the upsideplatform? In terms of you know your more traditional, your your consumerlending to your current customers and within the base? Is that somethingyou're looking at your you're doing where you got in that kind of lifecycle? Definite, I understand, is all your talking about cross selling or exactly help, but yeah CR. Well, Ithink I guess there's really two questions that are they're related, I'mgetting one is like. Are you selling these loans you're offering these longsto your current customers, as opposed to just the demand? That's comingthrough the DUB start program? That would that we can generate, and I guesssecond, for the people we are bringing. Are you cross on them? Other stopparticularly talked about building a national footprint. How do you thinkabout you know what your objective is for that you know base of customersover time. That's a great question. I mean you know for us right now. We aredefinitely marketing. You know this this opportunity to our to our owncustomer base, and you know again, you know a small community base base bankin the Midwest. We I have to take every...

...opportunity. We have to get signalslike customer signals and marketing signals from you know existingcustomers, and so we are utilizing. You know that data and that data you knowin data's currency for us as well and we're taking that to begin to buildprograms bundling opportunities for other goods and services to them. Oneother thing earlier: When we're talking about the time to actually stand up theopportunity I was on the board of directors at first federal before Ijoined the back, so I was like the technology guy on the border directorso from the time that so I can speak to this at a little different level. Fromthe time I saw it raised to the board of directors to the time we went livewas I believe, five months from that time. So for us it was about a hour tofive month. If I remember it forty my month to get that off the ground. So Iwanted to bring that as well. And yes, we are definitely using the opportunitywith upstart to grow our prospect and custom or less we'd be done if we didits data and we need, we need to be able to utilize our data to grow ourbusiness and we're doing just at yeah, and then I've got two folks who want toknow if you are servicing the loans or we are so I will well let you answerthat Question O. I don't Know Jeff who who's servicing our lines? Is it you oris it us? I believe I believe we are very, but wedo all servicing in the names of our partners, so we're operationalize that,interestingly, in this product category, something like ninety percent of Barwars end up on Automated Ach. So a lot of the servicing is really just anautomated payment processing system. That's done, then we do have a brandedservicing interface, so people can come in make one time payments to that kindof thing. And then you know we'll pick up the phone when they call and we havededicated numbers for a or Clints O we're doing it. On Your be happen, aand that's part of where that diligence comes in where you're looking at thecall scripts and the processes, and all that when you have some partners atservice on their own and just originate the loans and then and then pick up theservicing, and you know we think it's for us- it's really about what'seasiest for the partner and what allows them that speed to market right. So youknow being able to injustice, and maybe you don't have unsecure term loans. Youdon't have the service in protocol set up, you don't have staff it's trainedand that might be a longer time horizon than you want to get live, and so wecan certainly manage that and on the other and I for those partners, youwould like to to do it themselves. Like that's great, I certainly think when Ihear I D be curious. Your thoughts on this- i I barry, does not seeing thisquestion in advance, but I see a lot of the talk of digital transformation andpeople looking for unified experiences in unified platforms. It it's really mysense that increasingly servicing is maybe the area where unification ismost critical, at least being able to bring together all the products I havewith the bank and present them in a uniform place and way versus where Ithink some of the origination experiences being separated kind ofmakes sense. They can be optimized for that product, but, but I do feel likeyou know, you need to be able to represent all the products thatcustomer has with you and give them that kind of unified view on theservicing side, which is one of those conversations I've been having with alot of of banks when they think about what does a digital transformation meanand where do I unify? Where do I buy, maybe a partner with two or threedifferent players for different products? How do I think about thatcurious? If you agree or disagree with you yeah? I agree with that, a hundredpercent I mean you know and again you know in a technology realm. You knowlike, like anything else, pretty much in business or life. You know do whatyou do well, you know, and some organizations do do components of thisand some technology firms really well and where it makes sense, then you, youknow you need to invest in you know as far as unity of platform and whetheryou know your few desire to have fewer platforms, you know institutions andsmall institutions like cars would say. Oh definitely, we need to kind ofcollapse. If you will it worn't make sense and where it's possible to dothat, but not at all, not in all instances and not all the time. So youknow having the servicing capability pre built, turn key again USAIN. Thatterm is super important YEP. So you talk about. Do what you do well, so Iwant to ask you this, because I you know four to five months. Is I call it?You know on the better side of average, for many of our partners in a reviewprocess, and I know we're not the only fin tech partnership you guys that haveentered into which, in my experience across you know, the the the banks.I've worked with many struggled to actually get through the process getyou know the interest is high, but the ability to execute across fintechpartnerships, particularly bringing all the internal stake holders along andgetting everybody comfortable. It's not. I mean I work. The technology spaceused to be a CIO could buy my product. There's there's no one person in a bankthat can they can sign a deal like that of any kind of ten tic partnership.It's a lot of people talk about why you think you've been able to drive thatsuccessfully what you, what you do well, so to speak in that category, becauseit's certainly something I think a lot of banks would like to do more of, butbut struggle with how they actually get these deals over the line andimplemented it successful versus you know conceptual yeah, that's a! I think,that's a great question and it's just key. You know, especially when you'reengaging in this arena. I mean I always look for you know, maybe five or sixkey indicators and key things right. You know. First of all, you know thevalue proposition of has to align with our business model and to our strategicplan. So you know, if I'm looking for...

...an opportunity with a fen tech orbefore I can bundle anything up and bring it to the exact team or the boardof directors. You know we have to have that that alignment to our businessmodel and then I think you know we're looking for firms also that have likekind of a dedication to customer success as well. I've seen this as be abig fail. Where you see an organization that may have a great use case. You tryto go a partner with them and then it just becomes. You know a terribleexperience and you can't get anyone on the phone and you can't get anyone toyou know to help you through the hard times. If you will we're also lookingfor, I look for disruption, you know being a check guy, which is beingbecoming more apparent as we go through. The call today you know is I'm lookingfor people who don't do things. The way they've always been done and therethey're looking at orchestration automation and leveraging all of thosecapabilities. You know whether it's ml, you know machine learning or artificialintiligence we're an old, very conservative Midwest. So when I'mtalking to my board of directors about machine learning, there they're givingme the kind of the dog whistle look they're kind of turning their head alittle bit like what is that? What are you talking about? Why is thatimportant? But I think it is. I mean these advanced technologies makedecision, ING and so many areas of the institution so much better. As Imentioned earlier, you know a true partnership just begins with peopleright. So if I can get you know the proposition the customer successdedication and I can present this up and package this up to the board ofDirectors or to the executive team and demonstrate the wind. When I meanthere's, the business model has to a line of work. The you know theeconomics have to be there or you don't even do it. That's what gets him one?That's what gets them over the line? That's what gets them implemented andthat's what it gets head, heads nodding and the board of directors and peoplesaying yes thinks a lot of sense to me and I think we are lucky to find a goodchampion like you. You know because I think goes having having the rightchampion eternally in my mind, who can really drive this and knows how tonavigate the organization is really critical and then I've got one lastquestion then we'll open it up. So if the audience has questions, I knowthere's a couple in there that I have an answer at that I think will get to.But if you have other questions, throw em men, it's my last question for youBarry. Where are you seeing the big investments for the bank over the nextcouple of years? Like you know you you're here now. Are there areas you think others areover indexing under indexing like? Where do you see the big opportunitiesin the places? You're excited to be investing over the next three or fiveyear time rise in terms of opportunities for the bank yeah, I meanyou know for us it's to accelerate our digital transformation right I meanquite you know it's a tech guy, but I mean I'm responsible, for you know allof our go to market and all of our sales, most all of the lines ofbusiness right. So you know I've got to have technology and I've got to haveyou know it's the PPG, it's the people processes in technology, but we'regoing to focus on continually digitally transforming in whatever way. That isright. It could be automation and orchestration and our operations, whichit will we've deployed date, analytics tools and business intelligence tools.So we're now ingesting data from all of our different core platforms, includingyou know, may I may I add, with upstart, so I'm Roff ers an API. They alsooffered you know a really nice business intelligence platform, but to correlateand aggregate all the data that we want with other signals from marketingsystems core systems. We need to be able to grasp and bring that systeminto a data warehouse. We can do that right, so we're going to continue onlooking at data's currency. We're going to continue to look at disruptivesystems were we're going to deploy a new. What we feel like is a disruptivee banking solution, for you know in the future, in the next six months, we'realso looking for consumer lending, something that's very customer centric,something that really is frictionless. If you will, which is big for ourorganization, so consumer lending we're going to roll out a ebanie platform.You know mobile banking, online banking that are very different. We're notgoing to go to kind of status. Clothe like there's a there's, a bunch ofplayers in that space that we could jump to and be hey we're good we'rekind of equal to our competition and our marketplace, but we're actuallygoing to going to lean forward and take it a step beyond a technology. We feelis very disruptive and we're going to we're going to play some bets and Iwould say this jeff overall we're going to we're open to more risk. Now. Youknow overall, whether it's in the digital transformation space, whetherit's in new goods and services, or partners that R that were looking to tobuild relationships with an old, a kind of more iola old, but an olderconservative bank in the Midwest. You know we've got to do that. We got to dothat. Survival depends on us being able to do this well, and so we are going todo it right and we're going to look at the new goods and services at upstart.Has the auto landingg thing is very...

...interesting: The decision ing of theback in decision as the service- I'm not saying that's a product, you guy,should build you know but Jeff, but maybe it is right that we could use forother things like a customized, digital or consumer lending product that our needs. So hopefully that helps. Imean that's really what we're looking to accomplish and we're not going toslow down and we're going to serve our customers. Well, I think it's smart er,not I'll just say I think one of the things you said the more open to risk.I think one of the things we often do is we under index risk of the statusquo. In the current course of the past yeah, we tend to think of that as thelack of risk path- and I think, particularly in a moment of you, know,dramatic change at that. There's a lot more risk in that path than you mightthink, and you've got to really index to the risk of doing something verydifferent versus the index of what happens. If I don't and I'm left behindhim one interesting stat that I saw today, my my data team is going to killme, but because we haven't, we haven't ly bedded this all all the way, but youknow we see you know upwards of sixty, sometimes seventy percent of thetraffic coming to check rates for the product and our website. You know itcoming from oble devices right and you know that's kind of stunning- The shiftthat there are still many places. Many institutions where you can't you can'tcheck from a digital device, you're right, and we now see the majority ofthat traffic- sometimes quite a large majority, coming not just from a mobiledevice but actually coming from our not from a digital vice but for O bobldevice right, and so you know, if you go out and say, Hey we've gone digitalyou're going to go, oh shoot! We got to go mobile to so. I do think. There'sthis moment of you know profound change. That coved is accelerated, that rightthere are people depositing checks with their mobile grandma and GRANDPA, adepositing checks on a mobile phone that you never thought would do thatand do they come back to the branch in four months yeah. I don't know thatthey do right. I think many of the many of the use cases are going to be moremore stable than we think, and so you need got to get got to get ahead ofsome of those trends. That's right, I mean I'll just add in you know we'reall so investigating you know what I'll just call remote life banking. So if wewant to leverage you know digital opportunities, what our data signalstell us from our upstart data or mortgage data, and we want to be ableto bank customers, and I was used to blow Mississippi because that's whereElvis was born, you know, but if we want to bank people from there, we needto have the ability to do so. So I mean real time live type. Banking, remotebanking capabilities is in our future as well for sure got it lot it well,I'm going to open it up. Jinny. I know we've got some questions from theaudience. I can pretend make up my own questions if there aren't some goodones, but let's open it up to whenever I have an covered, I tried to weavesome stuff in throughout, but hopefully there's a couple of questions we canget to the people have out there. First Question: is the government stimulusprograms have added a lot of liquidity to the system, including it toconsumers? Would you expect the loss phrase to increase once the effects ofthe singulars were off m? It's good question bar. Do you want to answerthat? If you want to make me answer that? Well, I'm just going to say ifthis stimulus ever stops so I'll just start there and then Jap? Maybe you canyou can take it from there yeah. I don't know if I don't know frazy quitethat way, but certainly we've got a looks like a new stimulus coming butand signs of re emergence of a more traditional set of economic activity onthe horizon. So it's a good case to be made that those two things what willbring us back to the new normal that looks from an economic macro conditionpoint of view, something like the old normal without too much disruption justfor a quick, peek I'll pop up some numbers on what we really saw in thethis is a not the TVs program. Just to be clear. This is kind of up starplatform wide, but we really saw during the Covin. You can see here percentageof the portfolio, and this was a metric done by a company called dvine thatallowed us to compare across some competitors and different platforms,but we saw what's called payment impairments, anybody who was late,whether they were delinquent or whether they went into a hardship program. Youknow our portfolio writ large and again every lender can have a subset of thisrisk is with something like six percent pre pandemic accelerated to twelve, andyou can see the light gray bar here is the hardship program so really well. Awhole bunch of people enter the hardship, not a tremendous impact onactual rates of delinquency. We just saw a lot of people added to hardshipprograms on top of the deligates O we peeked around twelve percent in May ofthe portfolio last year that we've been on a gradual decline and as ofSeptember and again I don't have data after two three O toand twenty, becausewe need to report our earnings before I can. I can show you guys that, but youknow we back to basically normal with one percent or less in a point in thehardship program, six percent overall payment impairment, the other stat Ican. I can show you from from this particular analysis- was it we're nowseeing this is percentage of borrowers who entered a payment program who havesince recovered to making on time payments and for have started that trumstarts overall platform. That's around ninety five percent, so we've seen verylittle the actual loss to the portfolio driven by Ovid we've seen pretty muchno impact or returns. I think is very mention that he didn't really see anychange to the returns to that is generally true for us rit large, and soI think we feel like the portfolio has been through. The big stress we feellike the hardships and recovery is a...

...pretty good metric. Not. I am alwayscautious to say two things whenever I talked about macroeconomic conditionsand those are number one, the future may not look like the past. The nextrecession, probably won't look like the last one, so you know predicting thefuture base on this. It comes with a lot of a lot of stuff in it. We in,secondly, we're coolly, not through the end of the pandemic. I mean my kids are,are here in my house today, because they're not in school, so tells you alittle something about the fact that we're not back to to total normal, butwe feel pretty good that the future won't look a whole lot worse than thepast and that we're in a good position, at least as we see it so far today, notnot being a crystal ball kind of organization, I'm not going to make tomany predictions, but that's roughly what I'd say on that topic. We say I'vegot a question. It was Texas to me said: Barat heard you mention that you doublevolume. Can you explain what the process looked like? How long do I takeyou? What did you have to do to actually to double what you were doing?Yeah? That's that's a great question. I mean you know again, you know thepandemic. You know kind of through everybody ye a little bit. You know,especially where we have this new relationship with upstarting we'regoing to do all of this and then wow. What's this really going to mean, so Ithink the decision was easy, based on the stability of the Port Feli and whathappened and what actually happened right and you know there was what wethought could potentially happen and what losses we might take. There waswhat actually happened and then, whenever you know for US whenever wasokay, you know again. I think that the earlier question speaks to you knowwe're kind of flushed with deposits we have money, you know, that's, let's putit to work, you know that's a determinative factor as well. We werejust like, let's put some more of that money to work. We don't see a lot ofrisk here as much risk as we think there was going to we thought that wasgoing to be so, let's go a and do that. So I would say the decision for thatwitter was was a much smaller. Let's put it this way, the level of effort toget that decision made was MENASCO. I had to have maybe three to fourconversations. We talked about it with our partners at upstart, which we have.We still have recurring calls now that are every two weeks instead of everyone week right, then we got the chat about. We got to discuss it. What doyou all think? Would you be open to it? Then we took that back in so I mean itwas really we looked at the past. The past informs the present and the futurein this particular endeavor, and then we went ahead and place the bet andwent for it was very, very easy to do and I wouldn't anticipate that's goingto be the last change for us this year. I wouldn't anticipate we're going togrow and probably grow considerably in the next quarter. I got my phone readyfor your call, Berry you just let me know if, from from our point of view,we can, we can ramp volume within limitations within a matter of weeks.So it's a pretty short order from we'd like to have more loans coming throughour through our program to being able to turn that on. If you ask forbillions a month, you know that would be harder for us to generate on ness intanious bases, but most of the bank partners were looking at are looking at.You know one to ten or fifteen million a month and that's the kind of volumethat we have very easily available for our partner. So we can move veryquickly to do that, yeah it any at matter of weeks, like you said you know,yeah got that was like two and a half weeks and we were up and running witwith the higher volume. Sometimes we do it even faster, depending on how youknow exactly how much where we're got in the month are on or there otherother questions out there for us there are. I think this is directed to vary.Does upstart help you navigate state lending laws, yeah, that's a greatquestion, and maybe just a smidge outside of my Bailey wack. I'm gonnatake the easy answer and say: Yes, I believe we get guidance there a wrongso help me out. My lawyers will tell you very clearly that we're not yourlawyer, so you know compliance with state lending laws. Of course, everybank a coming o their charger and their regulatory oversight regime. Like areyou sad regulator of I C regulator, OS e t regulated has slightly differentrules and, and those are always in control of the bank. We certainly havebeen running programs with lenders chartered in many states under thepurview of all of the major federal regulators. So we have our experienceand we'll share that, but I want to be careful that we can't we don't we're,not your counsel. So when you talk to my lawyer, they'll give you aperspective but they're. Also, not your lawyer, but- and you should you know,have your own point of view and make sure you know that one of the banksresponsibilities is to ensure from a compliance and legal point of view,that the the things we're doing on your behalf are compliant with theregulations to which you are subject and that's a conversation with everypart. So we help a little bit, but I want to be clear that we're not youknow everybody needs to be doing their own analysis. It does lost great, and Iwould say you know in the guidance realm especially around the product iswhat I was referring to. That's a that's been super helpful, so yeah,absolutely nice question is: Do you have a credit mixed target? I nearprime verse proves Prime Ver Super Crime. You Ave a credimi, progray heahcredit mix target again. You know I'm gonna, I'M gonna have to take a littlebit of a pass on this one for us. I would have to talk to our learningofficer for sure, because I don't want to disclose unless I'm close to whatI'm talking about yeah. So you know we obviously there is, but what you knowwhat that is. I I don't know if I'm privy to share, so I'm just going totake a pass on that one. Sorry, whoever asked that question so yeah so I'lljust say as I, as I kind of mentioned earlier, each ball partners can specifyreally less a mix and more of a...

...portfolio level losses with whichthey're comfortable and we'll help them figure out where they should make a cutoff, because there there's a question of overall portfolio risk, which isreally a question of mix and a question of the maximum ers tolerance that youhave and we have a lot of history on the mix and then we can help you setthe maximum risk allowed for a loan to be approved, and then you know adjustas we go. We have regular music all of our partners and so we'll look at hisRa ride as a loss. Portfolio prediction right. If it gets to be a little high,do we need to tighten it up if it's hey? If this performing really well- and wecould get some more volume, if we were a little looser on the risk side and itwould be properly price- maybe we want to do that. So that's just an ongoingdialogue. We have with every partner that they can manage yeah, okay. Well,I think we have time for ten more questions now how many loans wereoriginated by upstart in two twos nineteen and two thousand and twentyyeah. You think I would know that off the top of my head I'll just tell youthat we were coming out of coved to twenty three two tousand and twenty.You know you will hey. You, can look at our son filings and see a lot of thisinformation not publicly, but we were originally a couple hundred milliondollars a month across all of our lending platforms and we really clearthat upstart is not an originator. So we don't. We don't originate any loans,but the banks that we partner, with, like first federal of Kansas City,we're originating on the order of a couple hundred million dollars a monthtowards two three and then you know we're announcing earnings in about aweek. So if you want to hear how c four went, there'll be some more specific numbersprovided then, but you know it's a pretty sizable volume and in each ofour partners, is kind of dictating. What portion of that they'd like greatare. All your consumer products now originated through upstart or as partof your portfolios, still originated through previous Los Yeah. We Are we'reoriginating part of our borahs and then some ARADO lending is still from ourown lls, so the unsecured through through upstart, and then we were stilloriginating those on a different platform. That's it that's prettytypical. Although Barry we're going to come and talk about the auto as we youknow, we started our history and personal in secured and have a lot ofvolume and partnership there. We launch an auto platform for our partners inDecember of last year and have been slowly growing expanding that I thinkwe actually brought that platform to Missouri last week. So we're you knowwe're getting to cover your area a little more fully and so that you knowthat's one of those things that we're looking forward to expanding throughthe new ear. We have time for one more question: was there additionalregulatory scrutiny when Your Bank introduced this product and how did youdeal with it? Yeah! That's a great that's a great question! Yes de well,is there editional regulators scrutiny yeah most definitely and the way wedeal with it is our cheap risk officers just outstanding at kind of positioning.What we're trying to do- and you know the comfort level for the examinerswith how we're recording it, how we're managing our risk there. So you knowfor my end, it was more of here's the opportunity on the table from our CRO.He was able to build a package for them and then you know when we had our lastexam, which has only been not many months ago. The first exam we had itwas a bit of an issue because you know upstart was still young. Thisrelationship was young, but at least was you new to us? You know it was Ikay. What are you guys doing here? We, our CRO, was very diligent and upstartwas very good at providing us with the you know the documentation all of thenuances we needed. I think when they came back around the next time. Itwasn't even a blip on the radar. They were totally fine with it. So hopefullythat helps on answer the question somewhat, with the burden for us waskind of start up burden. If you will there and then after that, it's justlike we totally get it, and we understand and upstart was more of aknown commodity to them as well, and I just say we do our best to have all theall the things your regulators going to want to see and all the diligencematerials prepared and package, because we've been through this ringer. Thatsaid, with all the fat, major federal regulators got banks that originate. Soyou know we try to be. As helpful as we can at ultimately your relationshipwith the regular, we don't want to not trying to supersede that, but we aretrying to to help you meet their requests and requirements nice. So oneother question. I answer. I think I got one minute left, which was you know,who sets the rates and just to be super clear, upstarts responsible forpredicting the risk of a lone each bank partner helps us by setting what theywould like to price certain miscast, two percent likelihood of default.What's the interest rate you'd like to charge and our model will take yourpricing strategy and apply it to our risk, an analysis of the of the loanssame thing with the origination fees they are up to each bank. Some of ourpartners do charge some of them. Don't many of them actually don't chargeorigination Fesan all so that's that's totally in control, troll of the lenderand we're really taking the role of underwriting the risk prediction right.How likely is this person to default and prepay and then and then allowingyou to set the pricing strategy? Fe Structure You want associated with thatrisk, so it can hit. You know your own economic objectives and that's totallyup to the lender, and we work with you on a regular basis to to date that, ifrequire upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow theirconsumer Lon Port Molios and deliver a modern all digital lending experience,as the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sensethat their bank does to upstarts a islanding platform, uses sophisticatedmachine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approvemore applicants than traditional kind...

...of models which broad rates near zero.Upstarts. All digital experience reduces manual processing for banks andoffers a simple and convenient experience for consumers, whetheryou're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto liningprograms or you're just getting started up star can help of star offers an intoin solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within yourrisk profile with all digital underwriting on boarding loan closingand servicing. It's all possible upstart in your quarter, learn moreabout finding new borrowers. Enhancing your credit decision ing process ingrowing your business by visiting upstart for Dash Banks, that's upstartS, four dash banks, use them listening to leaders and lending from upstarsmake sure you never miss an episode subscribe to leaders and lending inyour favorite podcast player using apple podcast leave us a quick ratingby tapping the number of stars. You think the show deserves thanks forlistening until next time. The views and opinions expressed by the host andguests on the leaders and lending podcast are their own, and theirparticipation in this podcast does not imply an endorsement of such views bytheir organization or themselves. The content provided as for informationalpurposes only and the discussion between the host and guests should notbe taken as financial advice by companies or individuals. A.

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