Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 55 · 7 months ago

Forging Fintech Partnerships to Digitally Scale and Create a Holistic View of Data


More and more consumers are choosing to conduct their banking transactions online, and as such, financial institutions are adjusting their services to meet the digital moment.

The question becomes, how can smaller institutions create differentiated service offerings for their borrowers on a limited budget?

David Brand, Senior Vice President of Lending Operations at Sharonview Federal Credit Union believes fintech partnerships are crucial to helping smaller institutions, like community banks and credit unions, compete. He also foresees a future where in-branch associates help customers bridge the gap between the old and the new.

In this episode, he talks about the future of banking and the initiatives that Sharonview Federal Credit Union has launched to prepare for it.

We discuss:

  • The importance of educating customers on self-service capabilities
  • Applying automation and technology to back-end processes
  • Managing indirect and direct vehicle financing
  • Outsourcing financial services to partners  

To hear more from Leaders in Lending, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on our website.

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You are listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation and more. Let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders and lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with David brand, the svp of lending operations at share and view Federal Credit Union. David and I dive into his thoughts around the ability to automate and or outsource parts of your operation or entire products, including the role that ai can play and how that's achieved. Specifically, do in their decision to exit the credit card business and outsource out portfolio to another player and how they're still leveraging that partnership to meet their consumer customers needs. And finally, he really dove into the continued need for not only human interaction but also their demand for in person interaction for certain instances, even during covid and how canding to balance that with digital interactions. Truly fascinating discussion with anthing a lot of interesting tidbits for anybody. So please enjoy my conversation with David brand. Welcome to the PODCAST, David. Thanks for making the time to join us. Thank you, Jeff, for having me. Yeah, so I've started asking all my guests the same opening question, which I think is really interesting, which is kind of you know, not many of us grow up dreaming of being a banker when we were kids. What was your route to the the position here and now? I how did you get into the industry and into this role? It's a great question and right at the start I have to tell you what I'm doing is not really that disconnected from a passion that I had very early on, which was what was the future going to look like? You know, I was one of those kids in kindergarten sat there drawing pictures of what I thought the future would look like. Flying cars and whatever you saw in the JETSON's. Right, you should publicize pictures. is in FT's now. You can make some money on them. If I had them, that would be great, right. You know, I get to grew up watching the JETSON's and if anybody's familiar with that show, you know the video chat course, has come to life, but you know, so I was just fascinate about what the what the future is going to look like. So I find in this role not only is that still my passion, but it's really a necessity to make sure I'm ahead in the right direction. Right is it? What what is the future of lending going to look like? What is what is lending going to look like five, six, seven years from now, and what actions am I going to take today, you know, to get there and be a player in that news in that space? M jumping off of that the concept. I mean a lot of people I talk to talk about the experience of the last two years and Covid and the shutting down a branches kind of accelerating the shift to the future. I'm curious what you see that future looking like and if any of the things you experienced during covid have changed your perspective or kind of redirected you're thinking about what you think the future of this space really does look like. Yeah, it's a mixed bag. I mean, certainly we've seen a rise in mobile transactions, both on the deposit and lending side, and no doubt some people...

...did that out of necessity and then once they did it they figured hey, this isn't so bad and this is probably a lot easier than having a drive into the branch and give my credit union a check drawn on the credit UN to pay a vehicle a own I have with the Credit Union. And when I see people doing that I'm don't really understand it. But you know, I realize there's a probably a deep sead need for a lot of folks to have that human connection and probably always will be. But I think as we continue to evolve through this, you know, I think we're going to continue to see shifts to doing the simple things online, applying for personal loans, even though even auto loans, paying loans, making balance transfers, so forwarth, doing that online, but still wanting the personal touch for the more complex transactions. You know, if I'm going to make an investment, right I have a hundred thousand dollars, I need to put that somewhere. I'm going to buy an investment property or a primary residence, I need a mortgage. Those are things are probably you know, they're still a space for brick and mortar for people to have that that human touch, but we've got to show them, educate them and train them on the self service aspect of the transactions. Do you found that that kind of education accelerated during covid? I did find that the peoplehood never would have thought about mobile deposit like they did it. They went off, like I have kind of forced education, if you will, and maybe that sounds wrong. Has got a lot of a lot of bad history around force education, but you know, people were kind of pushed in a direction. But but then I think are adopting a net naturally from that point. Yeah, I think so. It's a twofold heard hand to hand combat type situation where you've got somebody coming in with with the transaction that they can do on their own and just telling them, Hey, do you do you have a few minutes for just me to show you a different way to do this. You know most people are going to be agreeable to that and you're not going to get win over a one hundred percent of the people, but if you can win over a majority of them that's like that, you're definitely successful it. Do you still see the demand? You were telling me he saw, even during covid demand for in person transactions. It was a bit surprising to you. It was a little surprising. You have branches that we had closed the lobbies on. We allowed people to walk up to drive up windows or we created windows. They were not necessary drive up windows, like a lobby walk up type situation. And some cases we had lines around the block and I'm like, why do all these people want to stand so close to each other? We have a pandemic going on. But you know, so I don't, like I said, I don't think you can get everybody to adopt, you know, and then is a business you have to make a decision. You know, well, okay, if I've got eighty percent of the folks opted into self service, do I still have a business model for the other twenty percent, or do I just go forward and serve, serve the majority? And you know, we're kind of in a place, that place right now. You know, a quick example I'm going to give of that. I was in the org recently, please I used to live, and all their toll highways and toll bridges went. The cash was tolling. So you know where you used to go up and give pay cash to somebody, that's all gone. It's all eliminated. They didn't ask anyone if they were okay with that. And there's no work around solution.

There's nobody standing on the side of the road taking your cash before you can get on the bridge. It's it's there's no there's no choice. So I think one of the things we're going to have to make decisions about as a financial industry is we're going to go forward, you know, with the new technology, and I think some folks will get left behind. Interesting. Yeah, that's how that's a hard decision to make about how and when and probably varies a little bit product to product, like when you're going to say, Hey, this is not going to be a thing we do in person. But that is an interesting transition point, kind of an inflection for the industry as a whole. Yeah, and I think, I think that we're kind of very close to that tipping point now, you know, and there will be some institutions that will that that'll be their niche and say, Hey, we're going to we're going to be the ones are going to hand hand hit, hold your hand through the process, and that's okay. One of the things I want to ask about is I think we've seen the application of technology and so often there's a focus, I feel, on the consumer experience in terms of the UX, be at a mobile APP or a web APP or kind of like the front end experience. But I feel like there's a lot of opportunity in actually the application of technology and automation capabilities to the back end part. Right. That's that, not the the web formed input. Your information is right. The what happens next and that kind of people process and the manual process that kind of came after is maybe the less sexy part. It doesn't, you know, you can't, doesn't demo. Well, you can't go to whatever the conference is and put it up on Streem. You look out. Also, this is but it's always is more important and I know that's something you guys have focused on kind of how do we take the back office parts of the business and apply technology and automation kind of as intentionally there as we might on the consumer facing interfaces? Yeah, I think we have a little ways to go there. But you know, for example, when you're reviewing income information, right, there's a lot of some of the vintax it built some great tools around that, connecting the plan, for example, right to doing the verification. But you know, we insto. Some areas are business still were asking them to provide us with pay stubs and tax returns and we have somebody actually reviewing them and and calculating that income. And you know that that something we're definitely going to going to move away from sooner than later, you know. And also the decision factor, right, having somebody sitting there reviewing all the facts and making a decision. That can be done, you know, with artificial intelligence. There are proven there are proven systems out there for that. They can pull an alternative data and different decision points and make that decision automatically. We work with the company that handles all of our non prime model decisions and they service an entire country full of financial institutions with no human underwriters. So it can be done. Yeah, the idea of no underwriters, I think a so some mind blowing to many financial institutions that you would you would hand that off to machine. Do you? Did you have concerns about moving to a world where you're in a fully automated, you know, decisioning capability, whether it's this interesting, because I think there's a question of like, how do I get comfortable with ai? But you don't have to be using AI or anything fancy to take the score cards you used to have and turn it into an auto made a process that...

...can pull a credit record and deliver an answer based on the information provided. Do you have concerns about the move to automation and that after that we'll maybe get into the concept of Ai and how you feel about that? Yeah, the one thing is you can't set it and forget it, right. So I think you still need folks that are going to be able to review and interpret that data make sure providing us the intelligence to to inform and to make the right business decisions. So I think there's probably a shift behind actually people doing that manual underwriting work to having people that are reviewing and validating that data and ensuring that it's trude up with what we expect. I guess that's the probably is on two levels. To write the reviewing of the data, for the for the process, but then the kind of what I think it was the program or the portfolio management, is still alike. Is this thing doing what we thought it would do? To we need to configure the rules differently. We want to price things differently or change a tolerance or something like that. That you're probably looking at in a pretty frequent basis, I would imagine. Yeah, I mean, for example, we have a monthly Credit Review Committee that meets, you know, looks at the portfolio, we look at trends, we make decisions about pricing and underwriting and so forth based on that. But so I think the shift then becomes more to focusing on getting this data, reviewing this data and making making good decisions around it. Did you, I'm curiously, talk about that? was there any investments you needed to make in kind of the ability to have that data readily accessible? I feel like so many of the things in this digital world rely on this infrastructure of what we could do that with data analytics and I go, well, how easy is it to get the data and do you have the team and the tool sets to do the analytics? And that's, you know, a part that that it's not always easy to go from I know the information is somewhere to I have it the way that I can digest and utilize and a rapid basis. Yeah, we have a truly robust, brilliant business intelligence team, comprise data analyst, data scientists and so forth, and we we work heavily with power bidash boards, for example, and we're constantly we're finding that process adding new new dashboards. You give us new visibility into new data points and additional data points. So it's really remarkable. I've worked a lot of institutions, some quite larger than I will work in now, and I've never worked with the amount of Intel that I'm able to access and my fingertips and a daily basis. Wow, that's a fascinating I mean, do you have advice for other instag you got, I feel like, building that capability as fast and, as you say, it's better here that at some larger institutions. What's your advice on how you make that, make that true in an institutions? Maybe not there that saying, Hey, I'd like to have that kind of access to information, that access to, you know, even intelligence, right one level above information. It's like actually turning lots of lots of points of data into into some knowledge or or useful information, or even advice on how you get to the point where that's, you know, you feel like that's well executed in the institution? Yeah, I mean, if you're not able to build that team internally, there's certainly great companies out there that provide the ability to warehouse your data and then and then view that data and seeing...

...it as one of them. I've worked with them for a number of years. There still a current partner of share in view, but there's certainly plenty of plenty of options that way. Yeah, I just to me it's like one of those under underappreciated areas of investment for an institution and it warms my hair to hear that. You've you've got a world class execution therex. I think that's going to be pretty critical to the future. I think a lot of organizations do track data, but they're doing an excel spreadsheets right, so it's really not efficient, very timeconsuming and, you know, subject to error as well. Yeah, the other part of that I often find it I'm curious if you guys have been able to do this effectively, as is being able to not only have the data but to bring data from different systems together, so I can look at things like maybe portfolio performance by marketing channel or profitability by marketing channel, where like I got my profitability over here, my credit performance over there, my marketing analytics over there, and never the Twain shall meet. And then when I want to ask the question of, like, is this channel producing profitable loans or not? It's actually quite hard because I need to bring those systems together, and I like that's the other part of data that's it's not just one set of data that I can import to power Bi and pivot. It's like I've got to bring multiple, multiple sources of data together into a holistic view of that business. Yeah, you know, and that certainly true for us. You know, with vehicle learning, for example, we both have what's golden indirect channel where we source loans from vehicle dealers, and also have our internal branch channel as well, in an online channel. Right. So we are able to synthesize all that data and provide meaningful analysis right on autolone performance holistically, and this helps us with establishing pricing and in underwriting guidelines. Also to one of the things we're looking at right now is customer, or member as we call them, profitability. Right, so we can pull in different native points regarding how they transact with us on the banking side and then also on the lending side. So yeah, you've got to be able to pull in, pull in many different date data sources to create that true picture create that whole picture. You mentioned indirect vehicle financing and and I'm fascinated to hear that. I'd love you to walk me through a little bit about how you guys think about that business. When I talked to a lot of institutions, they seem to be exiting that business more than I hear about them getting into or investing in that business. So tell me a little bit about how you manage that part of the business and and why you why you're still investing in that area. Yeah, I mean there are there are risks inherit in that business, specially fraud, right, because you're not getting the ability to first hand, via your data systems or people, to validate the identity of that individuals. So you're relying on this third party then to validate identity. We also utilize resources from a providers, like trying transunion experience. We have tools that can also help us, you know, put up a red flag when there's something questionable regarding the identity validation. But it is definitely a said more risky than working with that customer directly. Also to its highly competitive, so you don't have really a strong margins there, especially when you're competing against banks and credings are very hungry for loans.

They're going to put out rates that are very, very low. So I think, you know, for some credit NS and banks they've said, you know, it will just give a competitive rate and work with the customer directly or go after other lines of business and maybe more profitable. But though, but for us it is represented a significant area of loan growth over the last two years. You know, we we saw last year a fifty percent increase in production, over two thousand and twenty wow, and even with it's been very the supply of autos has been very challenged. Of course, a lot of press, you know, around chip shortages and so forth, leading to shortages an inventory. But we've been able to expand out over a couple different states and really, you know, diversifier portfolio that way. The other big thing about that too, is that we are able to go into markets where we don't have a physical branch and don't have that footprint and and be able to start building member basis, interesting, yeah, or customer basis in those new markets. So in direct out has been like a geographical expansion approach for you. In terms of markets, you haven't had a physical presence. Said before. That's right, and it helps us in a way too, because we ever said Hey, you know, should we put a branch in this market? You know, we can look okay, well, what's the new member growth been? There been like and what are we seeing from those members that we've acquired through the indirect relationship? So it gives us an early indicator of the strength of a market. That's that's really interesting. I'm curious how much you've had success and you said how the branch based auto, you know, onto bill financing and the and the digital, because most of the institutions, I said, I talked to her, are exiting or think about exiting indirect because of the low margins in the high competition and I would say are excited about the opportunity to grow their direct and digital and branch channels, but but struggling with the execution of that. I'm curious if you've seen things that are particularly effective and helping you grow that portfolios. I think it's you often the the loan is like secondary and the consumers mind to the purchase and say they go to the dealer before they go to the financing and the dealers got a good chance, even at they went to you, they might they mcguy, I can get you a better deal from my guy down at the local whatever that the dealer has a relationship with. So I'm curious if you have any tips of how you've seen, you know, execution and that direct autospace, you know, be a digital or and branch be successful. Yeah, one of the things we're looking at, I know other organizations have found success in, is working with auto brokers, right. So there's there's a variety of companies out there create their own marketing funnel, you know, source your own leads and then will pass leads along the credit unions and banks based on the credit or eligibility boxes if they need established. So we are looking at that as a way to, you know, add value to the to the existing business model that we have. We also do what are called propensity or preapproval campaigns. So, you know, we go out monthly and we're targeting about Twentyzero. These are existing members, you know, to to either recapture alone, you know that they may have done elsewhere, or to if they're in market right, make sure that we're there and capturing that that loan.

So you know, there's that opportunity with the existing base and then the opportunity with the autobrokers to go after customers we don't have today win that relationship. Do you do any refinancing? Do you actually pursue people that you see like a loan that they got through some other provider, may be interacted a dether something else where you find and go hey, we can, we could go win that business back. We ought that. We deserve it, particularly for an existing member. You want to go and like you want to you want to earn back that loan and get that balance back on on the bank, on the on the ground. No, absolutely. That's part of our campaigns that we run in part of the training also for our staff, you know, is when they're having a consultative conversation with somebody, is taking a look at their credit report and even within our system they've got the ability to calculate a payment savings and tell them what they'll save by by switching them. Much for us. Yeah, if you, if you could do that and thought in real time, that's pretty impressive and, I think, powerful. The most most consumers I know like to save money. So if you if you can actually reduce some much the payment. They're they're open to it definitely. Now. I know you talked about parts of your business where you're outsourcing some some number of functions and I think particularly interesting strategy for smaller institutions, be a credit unions or community banks, that don't have the same kind of budget to build everything out in house for all the lines of business they might want to go into. I'd love to get your thoughts on on how you think about things you're interested and maybe partnering with somebody or outsourcing to an outside firm and and what you think is really core for the institution to own internally. Yeah, so big change for us. About about eighteen months ago we sold our credit card portfolio to El on financial services and starting about a year ago they began to issue on our behalf as well. So it's a white label program the credit card says share in view, but we're not issuing it, we're not servicing it. Yep. So it's been a great partnership because they were able to help us step up with many new cards that we weren't enable to bring to market for years probably if we tried to do it ourselves. For example, we just launched a business credit cards last month for business credit cards with them. Wow, and it was turn key. So, you know, having the ability to do that, they have a much better controls around fraud. So I think they're offering better protections for our card holders as well. But basically, this is an organization. This is all they do right, and they're servicing over thousand institutions. That's our area of expertise. They have the economies of scale behind it, they have the muscle, the marketing muscle and so forth. So we said, well, we'll let them do that on our behalf, you know, and it's actually worked out quite well, and we also receive a share of the revenue and income from the card program as well. As you know, top a wallet right, having a credit card with their name on it. Similarly, we're working right now with upstart with personal loans and we're going to soon launch a program where will both purchase loans that upstart as originated, as well as use a share in view branded website, but powered by upstart, to source personal loans directly, and these will also be serviced by this Fintech by upstart. But it gives...

...us an ability to gain an efficiency on what has been a very clunky process. You know. I'll just give you a quick rundown. Somebody applies to us for a personal loan. They don't know how much you're going to be able to qualify for until we have a hard credit poll, until we get their income information, then an underwriters reviewing, in a lot of cases manually, and then a lot of cases we're telling well, we can't give you what you asked for, but we'll give you this, and they may not accept that offer or then come back and counter the counter offer and we might have three or four touches for we land on a number. You know, the beauty of this new of the product with upstart is there's going to be a soft credit poll and I'm started basing on to say this is the Max you qualify for. You decide how much you want to borrow and whether you want three or five years. Here's your rate and if you're ready, hit go and then we'll make it a full application and then we have a lot less friction in the process. So again, this is a great example, you know, of a Fintech being able to do something better and more efficiently and will help with serve, serve more of our customers effectively. I love more efficiently, I think now more than ever, as consumers are, particularly when they're in a self sert mode, looking for the most efficient, friction less, seem less fast as process they can. I mean we're all, I guess, spoiled by Uber and Amazon, like well, something's not Amazon prime and I have to wait more than two days for it, I get upset and that's a pretty different expectation. But I think that's it's creeping into all of our areas of life where we expect that kind of immediacy of response. I give up as a site takes more than third seconds to load. So got thirty seconds. Yeah, we there was a svp of Google when I was there named Jeff. He ran out that he quoted this, but I always think of it as quotes. He said speed is my favorite feature, and so you know, it's just like what's your favorite feature? FEED GMAIL SIS. Speed is my favorite feature. Loading fast is my absolute favorite thing, and you could really see the difference, even in the case of Google's APPs in milliseconds, when you would shave a couple milliseconds off a load time, the happiness, the interactivity, the utilization would would increase, and that's, you know, thirty saccan of it. Thirty seconds as bad as it's too long, but people are really sensitive to that kind of time and waiting. So one of the thing I wanted to touch on with you is, as you outsource things like your credit card or, you know, the kind of processing of personal loans, what are the things you still think of as the core things? You as a credit you and you're executing kind of owning and using a differentiate you versus other financial services players in the market that your consumers could work with? Like, what is that core that you're still saying? This is where we're investing in really differentiating ourselves. Is really the experience. You know, how easy it is to transact, how fast you can transact. And in the education piece too, you know or we are reproviding you useful information. It's going to help you make an informed decision. You know, I still think we have to add value. You know, we can't just be about transactions, but we we have to be a resource for the consumer as well. As we've talked about kind of automation and and self served. Where do you see the role of you know, non automated interactions and that kind of information, education advice. Like how do you actually...

...optimize for that consumer experience and give them, you know, what they want? When they want to be that automated or be that human? And where do you think that line is a certainly with the more complex transactions, as we're talking about earlier. You know, you're going to invest funds or buy a home, you're going to start a bit, you're going to need a loan for your business. I think those are the types of transactions that well, while you can automate all of those things, I think they're still going to be a preference for that personal contact, some interaction, someone advice during the process. So we've become like a trusted advisor during that process. You know, in some of it's it's a hybrid. You know, we're going to have a little bit of switch when we go alive with up start in a few months, where our staff is not going to be entering that application in behalf of the customer consumer, like the art today, you know. So they're going to have to educate them on you know, well, maybe in the past, I'm going to we might have done it this way, but here's a new process and they will have an ipad in the branch and they're going to hand them the IPAD and they're going to be there an answer some questions, but we're going to train the consumer, you know, how to enter their information on that IPAD or their phone, you know if they have it in or coomfortable with that. So it's kind of like a we're going to kind of assist you in bridge bridge you to the next level. That's really interesting. I like that, that approach, and it's really my sense. I'me Curaci, because that that is that is where community institutions, be the credit unions or community banks, how this kind of advantage, the trust, the brand equity and the ability to kind of serve in a personalized way. That, I think it get lost in the larger institutions. Feels like the place to advast and really execute well if you want to differentiate in the future. Yeah, for sure. What was there anything, David, you expected or wanted me to ask that I did not get to today? In our discussion, I feel like we cover a lot of ground. I know there was a question in there about product Mike Shifting. I don't know if you wanted to touch on that yeah, if you have, you seen. I mean I certainly we've always met the forefront. Up started the kind of shift to unsecured lending, which was pretty minimal for most institutions crediting as less southern banks historically, and is growing rapidly. Are there other changes in product mix that you've seen or interesting trends you see in terms of how consumers are leveraging different financial services? Yeah, I mean one thing it's happening right now because it's been a rise in mortgage adjust rates over the last six months. Is a slow down and mortgage refinancing? Probably not. You know, if you already have a rate of three or less on a thirty year, there's not really going to be incentive right now for you to refinance at existing mortgage attap equity in your home, however, you might want to remodel the kitchen or remodel the bathroom or put in a pool, and those are major projects that might exceed what you can get from a person alone. No person alone is always going to win if you need to quick ten, Twenty Tho for something small, but if you're going to need forty to eighty two hundred thousand over some major home renovation project. The home equity really now is coming back. We're seeing a rapid rise in applications. Of fact, we saw fifty percent rise and applications in January over December. Wow, equity line of credit, although our of course, our mortgage refinancings dipped, but because there's...

...tremendous amount of equity right now. You know, the all across the country, home values have risen exponentially over the last few years, you know, by product of the short supply right in homes for sale. So people have this equity and then they're tapping into it. So I do see that shift going going on right now. And you know, because rates are rising and because home prices are high, there's no incentive for people to sell, which kind of exhaust exacerbates album right. So they say, okay, well, instead of selling this one and buying another, I'm just going to make the one I'm in the way I want it, whether it be enlarging it or adding features to it. And again that's where the home equity line of credit comes in and I've read a lot of reports of support that this is going to be a strong year for Home Equity Line of credit origination that would be great to see. Kind of historically, we've seen the last decade or more kind of slow study decline to that. So maybe you're right. Now we're going to see a little bit more tapping into that. Now I will tell you historically, you know, the home equit line of credit process usually has a lot of friction to it, and this is another area where we leverage a partnership with a fintech coming call first close, right, the kind of turbo boost not only our process but how we get those applications. So that's twofold. We actually work with this company to order services like tax verifications, of valuations and so forth, and we're closing home equity lines of credit in three to four business days in a lot of cases. Wow, we two years ago it might have taken sixty right. So that's a you huge difference. Yeah, and second to that, we work with them on what's called a digital living platform, where somebody can go in and check the value of their home and know how much they can borrow before they even put the application in, which upends the old model where I'm going to make an application, you're going to these all I'm going to wait two to three weeks and then you're going to tell me much I can borrow. They know that before they apply and they've already told us and we just validate the information related to the property in the Barrow when we close. So it's that's another area we've gained a tremendusmount of efficiency in the last year. That's a tremendous dealtha, because I still, when I talk to most bankers, are talking, you know, trying to get the process down to thirty days from forty five or sixty and maybe two weeks. It's the like long term dream vision and it be have that in three or four days. Is really stunningly impressive and into our earlier discussion. I imagine results of much both happier consumers but a much higher conversion rate from someone who's interested in the product of someone who actually borrows from you. Yeah, it's it's been an incredible lift, and so is word of mouth is spread. I think we're getting more applications just because of a process. It's not always noways about the price, it's about it's about the speed as well. Yeah, the speed is we have certainly found that borrowers are price sensitive and maybe equally friction sensitive as they are price sensitive, and so they will. They will walk away for both money and pain, and sometimes, I think, will walk away from a better deal just to avoid the painful process that may exist in certain places. So you can definitely win...

...both and if you can combine the to that's a really color combination. Well, did I get the same three questions I ask everybody at the end of the podcast, so I'm going to I'm going to throw a match in now because I think we're running out about a up to time. So here they are for you. Number One, what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gotten? Yeah, listen to the people in the trenches. So anytime I've taken over the department, you know, the first thing I do is side by sides and oneonone interviews with people. You know tell me what works, what doesn't work, what do you think we could do differently? What do you like, what do you don't like? And that's where my greatest learnings come from and I think that's where, you know, your greatest opportunity to make some small changes very quickly come from. Interesting listen to the people in the trenches. I've gotten a lot of good advice herever, that's the first time I've heard that particular piece. What's the best piece of advice you've gotten around consumer banking or consumer lending? Really put a focus on the employee and customer experience right and then develop your processes around that. You know, I've worked a lot of organizations where he said, well, this our process, so we have to make sure we tell our customers what our process is, whether they like it or not. Well, that doesn't always work out so well. That's so I called service oriented process, as opposed to process or in the service. So we think what is the best way to deliver this product or service? That's then what processes that support that and that insures the least amount of friction, not only for our employees but for the end consumer as well. Yeah, I think that's that's so true. I we so so often get caught in. I was just doing a little post on this and it's still a can valley. We sometimes refer to that, to that a is like you ship your ORC Chart, which is to say your internal team structure, ends up being the way your product exposes itself to your consumers. And what does it make no sense to those considerly good. Is it like this? And now I got I know because there's a team over here doing this, that a team for here doing this. They talk, but I think it's so true that we can get caught up in the way the process works dictating the product versus the other way around. Definitely all right. My last question. What's one bold prediction that you can give us for the future? I think we're maybe five years away from a vast elimination of the human touch in processes and I'm sorry if any of the people working my team we're hearing this, but we will. I think we need to retrain people. I'm then the story saying, Hey, it's gonna be massive layoffs. Right, we need to retrain people for other roles. Right, but I think the days of having individuals that have to read documents, review documents, make make a manual decisions, I think that's going to go by the wayside. It's just going to make the process better for everybody. Yeah, it's a fascinating shift to the idea that we won't have people doing processes, but I think it's a really interesting point you make that it doesn't mean we don't need people. Assume need the people. It's just a question of of what they're going to be doing as opposed to the documentation and review and the kind of I got to be honest, when I talk to people who do those jobs are they're not the most thrilling and I think most of them are excited about the idea of moving into opportunities that are a little more creative in nature, a little more human touch in nature, a little less rote and nature than what they what these jobs tend to look like today. Yeah, it's a fair point. So it's it's a win for the business but also can be win for the employees. All right. Well, David, I appreciate that you're making the time today. This was a fun conversation. Thanks...

...for joining us. I enjoyed it. Thank you very much, Jeff. Have a great day. To upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does to upstarts. Ai Landing Platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models, with fraud rates near zero. Upstarts all digital experience, reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto lenning programs or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Upstart offers an into in solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile. With all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing and servicing, it's all possible. Upstart in your corner learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting UPSTARTCOM forward banks. That's upstartcom forward banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player using apple podcast. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next the views and opinions expressed by the host and guests on the leaders and lending podcast are their own and their participation in this podcast does not imply an endorsement of such views by their organization. Or themselves. The content provided is for informational purposes only and the discussion between the host and guests should not be taken as financial advice by companies or individuals.

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