Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 51 · 8 months ago

Fostering Innovation in Credit Cards, BNPL & Credit Management

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

From credit cards to buy now pay later, Jerry O'Flanagan, EVP at First National Bank of Omaha, and his team are pushing the boundaries of what big banks traditionally offer their customers—and they’re overcoming the obstacles formed by legacy systems and processes to do it.

It’s all due to a willingness to go out on a limb and do something truly unique within the institution.

In this episode, we talk about Jerry’s philosophy on innovation and how he operationalizes it within the company. Plus, he shares his thoughts on some of the big trends in banking today.

We discuss:

  • Building and maintaining a team for a credit program
  • The impact of buy now pay later
  • Gaining inspiration for innovation from fintechs
  • The strategy behind standing up a national digital bank

To hear more from Leaders in Lending, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Leaders in Lending on your favorite podcast player.

You are listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation. In more let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders in lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Jerry O Flanagan, the evp at first National Bank of Olmaha, overseeing their partner customers segment. We talked a lot about Jerry's experience as a small bank that's likes the quite large and credit card and what the challenges are as a kind of unique position, but also the kind of unique capabilities around analytics and data that they've developed and because of that kind of focus on specifically on credit cards. As a large person of portfolio actually Delvena, Jerry sats on B Andpl as a credit card bank. I thought that was really interesting, something he didn't, I don't think, appreciated when it was coming in, and they've kind of pivoted in a really investing in that space now. So interesting to see what they're doing. And finally, I really enjoyed the discussion about how Jerry thinks about a business within a business, way to incubate innovation within the institution and how you can try and get your institution moving faster in terms of innovation and maybe unlocking small teams to pursue new ideas without some of the decision making, bureaucracy and overhead of the institution. Great thoughts for anybody in banking is looking for how do I get a new thing out the door and moving quickly to kind of improve the customer experience and capabilities of the bank. So please enjoy this conversation with Jerry of planning it well. Jerry, thanks so much for joining us today on the podcast. I really appreciate your make of the time. I'm delighted to be here. Jeff, thanks, I feel like I want I've been in your offices in Almaha and now we're doing it virtually. It looks different virtually than it does in person, but it looks like a nice day there. It is a little cold, but it's nice. How is it you? It's a nice day and warmer because you know, in the middle of February. Almah's a pretty cool place compared to what you know. I've started beginning all my podcast sessions with the same question, which is you, roughly most of it. Didn't grow up dreaming of being bankers and yet yet here we sit, and so I love to kind of understand your path to where you're at today. I can know what what brought you in the industry and how did you end up, you know, being a being a bank executive? Well, it was good question. I think like most people, I didn't know what I wanted at all. I graduated college. I literally was a deer and Dalys. I know I my parents were really both educators. I knew I didn't want to teach. So, you know, I had an economics degree and I ended up getting a job at a company called Aig New York, and and that lasted for a little while, not too long. I really didn't like it. Had An interesting stint right after that. Had A company calling Bascot, which was a engineering firm for nuclear power plants and they were in the world trade and I did that and then my journey sort of ended, you know, at still a very young age. I was all the twenty five beginning at City Bank and and that's you know, I remember I had a very good friend who worked at City Bank and through just happenstance, I they they wanted to talk to me and I got into consumer lending and their credit card division, beginning as a controller, and it was there really that I really learned consumer credit. City Bank, especially back then, we did a lot of pioneering things. I worked with brilliant people and really back out me started. So so that that that got you on your journey. City bank credit cards. Yeah, I like it. It's been saying to to me because you know, at Fmbo, you guys have a pretty large credit card program you know, compared to most banks your size are, frankly,...

...most banks I talked to or or typically not running their own credit card party. There's a few of them at scale and a lot of the really really don't exist. Talk to me a little about what it's like in your this is is quite a bit different than most banks in in a similar asset category size. Yeah, I think that's true, but I think we're the only bank course size that has this kind of concentration credit cards because because it is, for us anyway, rather large we've been in the credit card space for a very long time. We're are privately held company and and back in the S, you know, are one of the owners, you know, Guidance Credit Card and actually was one of the founding members of the Visa Organization, and we've always been involved in this and, as you you learn when you're in this space, regardless of whether you're a hundred billion dollar receivable company or ten million dollar one, you still need the organizational apparatus, the sophistication to execute against marketing programs, credit programs, oolitical programs, and so it requires a level of investment that makes it, I think, difficult for smaller banks to get into it. But given that we've been into it for generations now and we made the investment, send continue to make investments. You know, we we know what we're doing and I often say in groups I would put our organization, you know, head to head with any of the big organizations. Again, given that the organizational apparatus needs to match up, you need to do this well. There's no doing this halfway. Now, credit cards is dangerous business to be halfway into. I'm curious how you think about though, as as an organization that's smaller and it was doesn't have the budget of a city bank or a chase or or one of these with a large guys. How do you think about building that capabilit in house? So I will say most of the financial institutions I talked to, banks and crediting and struggle to build sophisticated analytics, modeling credit teams, you know, to keep them happy, to build a culture and at workplace where they could do work that they find both meaningful and fit into the overall culture. Or How do you think about managing next time? I will say in my interactions your team is one most sophisticated, you know, to your point, of any bank we talked to you, let alone just a a smaller science bank on the asset scale. How do you think about building and maintaining a team like that? Well, certainly are land. Longevity in the spaces is an asset to us. Even then, we've been doing it a long time. We are known, you know, and obviously the talent that you know, I hate to say this, but that matters a lot, is the analytical talents that effiicians, you know, the the credit talent, and you know for sure we look all over the place to get the very best we are. We Act as incubators for schools in the Midwest. You know, we have internship programs and through the years we've been very successful in attracting very tough, very top notch chat talent and I think also we work on really exciting stuff. You know, we're not. I always thought credit card was its own management science to begin with in banking and and you know it is. It's always been on the forefront when it comes to technology, marketing and credit. So there's a lot of intellectual curiosity that it attracts and I think because of that we end up getting some really good talent. I was say what, why do you think it is? It's interesting me that to me that you say that credit cards had on the forefront of new technologies, new approaches credit marketing. Well, why do you think that part of the lenning space has seem maybe more innovation and investment in the technology, the analytic side than, you know, more traditional products like mortgage or auto loans or things that are maybe less sophisticated often in their approach? Well, I think because to do it at...

...a mass scale you need to invest in tools that are credible. You know you need it. You know, it's funny. I was thinking about this. I don't know who it predates me. You know when the first score was developed? Probably in the s of the s. But honestly, you could not run a modern consumer lending franchise without scores. I mean what's the Al Chaitive, judgmental reviews? And thanks used to do that. So I think you know when you trust oppose the credit cock card operation to let's call a traditional banking which is heavily judgemental. Let's let's face it, it is. It is less dependent on scores. That's changing somewhat, I would say, in especially in the small business space. But no, large corporate lending is very much a business to do, though it is not the case when you're talking about mass consumer lending franchises. You've got to be able to adjudicate risk on a mass scale efficiently, and so you know that. That that, I think, breeds a sort of spirit of innovation that you know, continues to this that and we see it with the with the mass amounts of data now becoming available, and now you know the machine I ai, which is advancing our industry and and Um, think our game and I believe, I know it's a securitist way to answer question, but that is, I think, at the core of it. We've always had to do things as efficiently as possible because we're not making a lot of money on each loan. You know it's got to bed. Yeah, it's a lot of large numbers. Yeah, I guess it's true. When you think about mortgages, rather let the size of the loan gives you a lot of room for caught. You know, efficiency doesn't come from thin margins a lot on high volume. It comes from, you know, kind of I won't say thick margins, but you know you've got more room to play, and so I guess that kind of thinness breeds innovation out of just they say necessity as some other of invention and sort of out of necessity. Very true. Tell me talk people. I think you guys are playing a little bit in the buy now, pay later, but there's, I think, the big question of what becomes of credit cards vies of the by now, play later. There's obviously in the BNPL space a preponderance right now of kind of non bang players that are doing really well. That the Finn text that are lending and kind of, kind of, I will say, or at least the face of that industry to many. Where do you think that sits next to the credit card spaces? It's disrupt credit cards to dees are a an even balance. What do you think being pl represents in terms of a shift of product mix or not visa the credit cards as a spinning mechanism? Yeah, I don't necessarily see it as a fundamental threat, you know, existential threats of credit cards. I must say, and I say this was some embarrassment I when I first really became aware of by now pay later, I remember, and I won't mention the network, but I was at a senior council meeting and the CEO is talking about the bind ou pay lead or phenomenon, especially outside of the US, and it struck me as on because these were loans that were, you know, typically a hundred bucks, you know, spread out over sixty days or so, and I didn't think of it as serious. I thought that, you know, why would you pursue that all the energy and and you know, when a credit card can do that and so much more. Yeah, and I must say I've been humbled deeply humbled and and because that has taken off and it shows you the power of the experience, you know, the digital experience and the single purpose it discreete purchases with that offer from a consumers MPOINT and excellent value. So fast forward from two thousand and seventeen...

...to two thousand and twenty one. I mean I began losing sleep over this the bottom, and so much so we stood up a buy now, pay later business in five months at the bank and we already have our first set of partners and we're booking loans and it's going great. I see this, you know, if we do this correctly, as a conduit for the credit card. These are often customers that we have traditionally not underwritten and I think could be great credit card customers. They can be graduated in short order to a credit card and and then maybe get a customer for life. But I see this. It's a and this is probably one of the virtuous things of NTEXT that I think they're bringing so much creativity and energy into the consumer financial space. It's as an older banker I missed it, I admit it. I totally missed it. I just didn't say I don't remember telling my boss. I think this is my number one fail how did I miss this? But I do think that the two can work in tandem with each other very well. It doesn't have to be a zero or some game. I think this is actually a good thing for consumers and financial institutions. I'm curious if you see anything in particular that drives I mean I've been curious what it is at about the BNPL that has made it Exime. I'd be honest, I had the same reaction like why would I what I do that I've got like a thing right here. I'm free. Proved it's there's already a distribution mecha. I just swipe it all the all the merchants, except that I don't have to find things is. I've thought about it. I kind of see three things that are really different, or at least two on one of the Integrad experience. But one is the shift to an installment and maybe you can split installment and single purpose loan, where I think for many there's a concern about revolving credit, on not understanding the cost of revolving credit if I'm really borrowing over more than a couple of weeks. And the second was obviously the ability to embed merchant incentives into the credit offer in a way that typically credit cards hadn't done right. There was a swipe fee and there was obviously economics coming from the merchant, but in many cases now there's zero percent interest for twelve months, which in a traditional credit card world would put you upside down on the transaction. And yet merchants are willing to be more generous where they can see increases and in ticket size or conversion rates and they're putting little money in play. So the BNPL kind of brought some merchant incentives into the program that lower the cost for consumers. I like low I mean I like free money is good, zero inters is good. I like that. And then there was this kind of installment versus revolving I'm curious if if those are the things you see, or are what you see is kind of interesting deltas really, practically speaking, that make bnpl better alternative in certain use cases or are reason consumers might be picking it over, you know, the more traditional credit card that many of them already having a wall. You know I will one. I think it's an alternative len the facility that you know is discreet and offers, you know, the consumer another venue to manage their finances number one, I think. Number two, and I think even more important, the experience is fantastic. I mean, having built this ourselves now, it really is a cool, slick, seamless experience. I also think, and you hit on this, Jeff, I mean it's a great deal. It's an absolutely great deal. From now we offer zero percent, I mean not all pred for companies. Yeah, you know, on balance transfers for transactions and and Rollovers, but I guess it's the nature of the experience that that is so compelling. I would end by saying that this isn't, in some respects at all a new idea. I can remember even in my early days at City Bank, you know, cut looking to do the same thing on the back end. You know, if if action was over a certain dollar amount,...

...the the consumer would have the opportunity to put it in installments. You see it with addicts today, with planet pay. It's the same concept in other banks and I know the networks are trying to build that capability and I think that is taking off. But that capability has been around, that idea has been around. It never really took off. I think it's the point of sale experience that is so compelling, that is driving a lot of consumers, especially number ones, you know, to it, and that's my opinion. Yeah, I mean it really it's one of these things that I think is really interesting about the FINTEX space is that I feel like a lot of things, everything old is new again, where we're coming back to old ideas, but the automated nature of credit decisioning, the digital nature of interactions. I mean used to take credit out, you know, twenty years ago, if you're in the story, you had to like write it down and call somebody, and now you can make those things instantaneous. And those things that maybe didn't work as well, you know, conceptually made sense but practically didn't execute as well twenty years ago, today they can execute really well, and so those those old ideas are getting new life because I actually work much better from the from the actual day to day experience of putting them in practice. Then they could have some more yes, you talked about kind of thin text. Where do you see the most interesting innovation and FANTAC and how do you think about as a bank, about where fintext sits in the industry? Visa be partnered. You know, that was all first. Friend of these, friends of the enemies. Are they inspiration? Like? How do you think about fintext and where they fit into the space these days? Well, I mean, you know, I look at them more and more like inspiration. You know, I think that they are. Yeah, they're friend of these, you know I mean. But I I am amazed the creative and the elegance of what they're bringing to market. And now for sure they're not saddled with legacy technology that most institutions like mine are. After all, or technology stack is forty plus years old, you know, and and while we're furiously trying to modernize that it, it'll never catch up in any meaningful way to, you know, a start up that has no baggage. And so for a bank like hours, you know, to to really effectively compete we have to be willing to disrupt ourselves. We have to take inspiration from the fintext and really build a business within a business and deal link the couple from the the technology, existing technology stack and create a new technology stack. And you have to be willing culturally to do that. It's not easy to do, but you know, we are pursuing credit card as a service and you know, we will be standing up later this year our own national direct to consumer digital bank. All of this has been achieved through a recognition that we couldn't do it in the existing technology stack and end the cultural and decision right limitations that, yeah, are implied by that, that we needed a break off and think of a new way. So I again and I'll lend where I started. That's why I look at the Finn Text as inspiration. I think that they are a virtuous adjutant, and so we're phrase I like to use there. You know, they're they're chief old dogs, new troops, and I wouldn't rule the big bangs out. You know, they still have enormous capital and enormous resources that they can bring to bear. But I think culturally all institutions like fine have to be willing to go out on a limb and and do something really unique and different within the institution. I let virtuous adjutant. I'm going to I'm going to take that and make a make a sicker for my laptop. It says that or something I there, but I want to ask you how you do that, because it me if you read Clay...

Christenson is you know, as I think everybody in Silicon Valley is read, you got the kind of disruptive innovation in the advice is kind of like what do you do? What you stand up a business unit that is not subject to the technology stack and or decisionmaking processes or or the question of like well, that's a lower margin business. Why would I want to attract a customer to a lower margin version? Get the higher margin version here, like that's a bad thing. But it really requires quite a bit of a separate culture in insulation from decisions or business problems that you might the new business within a business might call to the cause for the older, bigger business. How do you actually set up the ability for that team to, you know, to act execute differently, to operate differently culturally, to be a little removed from the politics of other business units that that might be disrupted or the decisionmaking processes? Because that's it's an easy idea to state. Why I just stand up as a separate group and give them freedom and they'll go do the thing, and it's a very different thing to actually execute. And I'm curious how you thought about making that a reality, because it feels to be very hard to do, particularly in the context of a more traditional cultural institution like a bank. Yeah, I hit anail on my heead. It's one thing to say it's very hard to do. It's this business is all about the execution and I will tell you it's not all a hundred percent. Figure out. What you just articulated is very true. The cultural differences are real. The decision Right Cape authorities that we allow we're still running up against. But you have to be committed to deploying new management techniques. In our case we're deploying agile marketing or taking people from different businesses or putting them to get together. We're giving them a single purpose to solve. We're even creating new work spaces or spaces that are very modern and very flexible. We're taking them off, you know, spaces where they traditionally worked and we're allowing them to run and I think ultimately, what you know, one an area, one recipe for success, I believe, is you've got to have executive endorsement, you've got to the the executives have to be behind this a hundred percent. So you know, I run the what we call a partnership business with, which is credit card and loans, and I have all the operations, customer service, collections and all that. I'm behind this a hundred percent and my boss who who runs the company it is behind it a hundred percent and we talked about it in our board meetings, I mean and so so everybody knows that this is this is mission critical. Now, having said that, we're still, you know, we still have our areas of struggle. The stuff is different and it's hard, yeah, but it can be done and in our case, I think you know, example of success has been the buy now, paylet or watched, which I mentioned earlier. was done in record time. That could not have been done in the old way working interest. What were the specific things that you think freed that team up to? You know, like someone else is trying to will not say B andpl and kind of competing ast you guys, but we're trying to launch any product like that. What are the specific decisions or kind of things you freed that team from that you think with most critical for their being able to execute quickly successfully will getting a business manager in place who's exceptional, having small, crack, Agile team, moving off premises, owings outside the technology stack are current one, and engaging outside software builders to build out platforms for us. You know, thinking about, you know, creating a sense of urgency, and there was one that we had to do this. I mean I again I have a concomphony of partners across the United States that we're asking for this. I want to keep those partners with us. It was important that we have this product. You know, I think will working harmony with a credit work. So all those things...

...mattered, you know, and very proud of the team and I again five months. That's unheard of, from start to finish, and and we achieve that with not with a maniacal focus and a mission critical attitude. Yeah, I think it's one of the things I've learned from being early an upstart and kind of watching through the iteration of taking something from idea to executions. Like maniacal focus on achieving a specific objective is really powerful and it often a largest as is hard. You lose focus. There's all sorts of stakeholders have an opinion in scope creeps and think it's harder and when you can really focus on this is the thing we're going to do and we're going to get it done with it with a small, dedicated team. It's amazing what that team can really can really achieve, and relatively is you free people up, kind of a shackle them. You know, it's amazing what small group of Smart, dedicated people can do. Some quote about that for never never doubt that a small group of dedicated people can change the world. Yes, so I think it's west wing is where I found that some mode left. They were all shit. I was going to ask you. So your other, you know, thing you talked about here was your kind of national digital bank that you're standing up. Talk to a little bit about the strategy behind adding that, because you guys are pretty strong regional footprint and you know in your local geographies. What's The thinking behind a national digital approach? I know that that's not lie yet, I think you said, but it's something you guys are working on. Well, you know, again, I think it's keeping with our commitment to innovate, you know, and the idea of being digital first. You know, when this was conceived, to posits were in as cheap as they are now. You know. So one might say might not be most important, but we we it is important really, at the end of the day. The positive franchise arguably is our most important asset and our ability to get to posits and customers and leverage customers in a new and different way. For us, a traditional bank, that largely it has been, you know, brick and mortar branches. You know, we this was another opportunity to just break from the machine, you know, and and start with a clean slate and and like by now, pay later, like credit card is a service. You know, we have a small, dedicated team. We've empowered that team and, you know, we're going head first into the direct to consumer space. So it's going to be very exciting. Yeah, I'm excited to see that Lone and see what you guys do. Let me flip that one around on you a little bit, which is how do you think about yeah, that's just kind of another challenge to this approach, which is, like you still have your traditional customer base who are used to the brick and mortar and probably want some digital capabilities and transformation and you know, like transmations. Maybe that the cliche word, but bringing those digital capabilities into your core banking customer set with your that are operating on your all technologies. Like how do you think about the balance between you standing up a business with a business that could kind of be new, but if you've got somebody's been banking with you for twenty years, it has a mortgage and a car loan and a credit card, like you know, they're not shifting to the new system. They're all in the old system. So how do you bring some of that some of that innovation back into that kind of core, fundamental business? Because you don't want to, I think, I would imagine, just just leave those guys behind on the AL side to go out that stuff's too bad for you guys. We're going to go to the new stuff for that, for the New People. Yeah, it's a great question. We ground. I mean that, that that, like I said earlier, we continue to invest in the court. So our digital capabilities are still quite good, you know, and they're getting better. What I'm talking about this new business is a complete departure. It'll even be branded differently from from that word. You know, are our bank name today and and yeah, we will have some of those conflicts for sure, and I don't have all the answers yet, but I believe, you know, it's through doing you learn, you know,...

...and and hopefully over time there will be knowledge and technology transfer back to the core as we as we learn our way. But I think to really for a bank like us to get into a national space like this and do the posit gathering, we could not use our existing infrastructure to do that when we set ourselves up to fail. It had to be done in a completely innovative, unique new way and that's what we're doing. Yeah, I love this idea that the new business units feedback information inside. Mean they can iterate, learn execute more quickly probably than the current Org. So you can they're a faster place to learn, but ultimately some of that learning probably comes back and evens out over time. But it's it's great to see that kind of execution because I think it's it's really hard to do. I mean, I could those to you for pursuing that path. I don't think it's the natural path for, you know, most financial institutions to to kind of unchain that kind of innovation and say well, yeah, it's I mean you can end up with certain experiences that are better for the DTC, you know, the national brand, than they are for the current brand and you go that's okay, like we're not going to stand in the way of that progress and that's a, I think, a difficult cultural step for many people to take. Yeah, well, dread, I feel like we've covered a lot here, from credit cards to be in PL's, to national brands and business within a business, where there other areas you wanted to delve into, our questions, topics you wanted to discuss while while we're here. Yeah, I just think that, I know we've covered a lot. I you know, like I said earlier on, a credit guy and you know, yeah, started in credit and I think, you know, probably we shouldn't end this conversation without talking about amazing innovation going on in credit management, which we're seeing as as companies are able to utilize more data that is active, that is alternative and it you know, through that and through you more powerful machines and our official intelligence were really advancing credit to more and more people, and that's a great thing to see. And you know, on and as we get more indepth using data, we're also learning some really, I mean to me, revolutionary things. You know, I'm amazed how important know your customer is. I mean I always do. It was important, but you know, the the idea that, you know, there are tools now available to do just an outstanding job authenticating consumers that they are who they say they are, and that how how many banks miss identify bad debt when it's really fraud? And again, that's is all happening because we're doing a better job authenticating who the consumer actually is and it's the result of data and, you know, new algorithms and the machine. So I think that is an area, probably could be a whole area for an hour discussion. But I as an old credit guy, I do. I just marvel at what is being achieved. Their fast light is do you have any perspective on why this is the moment? I mean, I agree this into this real a lot of movement around the ability to use compute methods to it kind of move beyond the score. I mean I think scores were really interesting innovation and you know, you know, I fight goes what from the from the s or something, as you know, thirty forty years of stop. But it feels like they haven't progress substantially in terms of at least a practical impact on like how many people can we get through the door for credit? There, you know, have been relatively steady state and it feels like there's a lot of movement to improve that now is do you have a sense of why that is? Is there a reason that seems to be a movement for a lot of innovation in the space of credit and the applications these technologies? Yeah, I think we're just in a moment,...

...you know, this convergence of more and more computing power that is cheap, couple with access to data that we've never had before. And there's always, you know, everybody wants to approve as many as possible and you know, in every credit model, even today, I mean it always just a blood back when I got into this a long time ago, the false positives and and every you know, cohort that you see, and you may have a great approval rate. You know was seventy percent. Approval rate is really great. I means you're declining thirty percent. And I'll tell you right now, and the seventy percent that you approve, there are bad guys that are going to go, and the thirty percent you decline, there are good guys that you didn't yea. And what's happening is our specificity, our ability to discern the goods in the baths are getting better and better and better and again I think it's the result of advancement in technology and access to more and more data and it's I love your point about access us, because I it's the thing I think is easy for to get lost when you talk about accuracy, is that an accurate model approves more people. I mean it AP proves the most accurate model approves the maximum number of people, you know, without increasing losses. And there's I just think there's so much room for us to be able to extend credit on better terms to more people with more accurate models. It's it's easy to think of accuracy's like a think that's good for the bank, but it's really good for the consumer as well as being good for the bank because, to your point, like in any the false pause is the false negatives that killed me, depending on even could fall fall to find negative positive. But like in a pool that's too risky for a bank to lend to. You Go last, twenty percent, de Faulse, we could never go there and I go that's eighty percent goods, like you're declining eight out of ten good people because you couldn't find it. Two out of ten bad. That seems like a bad thing for the eight out of ten people, and that's the thing that I think it's easy to miss about why this is so important to people. It is. It is very important. People, you know, and all of them make mistakes. I can still remember. I still remember this when I started working aig, you know, in the S. I had a checking account at a bank. I won't name the bank, and after six months or so I apply for a credit card and they decline. They decline and you know, I applied around the same time to city back City Bank, where no relationship with approved me. And you know, I never forgot that to climb, you know, because it was so too and that's the thing you got to recognize as you're making these decisions. You know you're you know, you're you're affecting people, you know, and so if you can get more regular and make better decisions and expand the pool, you're a great place. Yeah, and to your put on false positive. False positives are bad for the consumer too, because when you get somebody alone they can't pay back, that is not helpful to them. So the more you can be accurate and keep it limit both of those the better off you are. But I do maybe that's a great way to end the discussion and move on to my final three questions. Like I love the focus on keeping the real impact of these things, that it's so easy to get caught up in the numbers. It's an excel file and it's really people's lives. It's People's access to credit. Its individuals and they they respond to these. A prison declines and it changes their opportunities in their building access as n's I think maybe so central to banking to be able to remember the the people at the end of the day and not just the numbers on the spreadshee. I agree. I always got to remember that there are heartbeats behind the numbers. Yeah, the heartbeats behind the members is good way to put it. Well, Jerry, I always use the same three questions at the end of the podcast to kind of to kind of wrap things up, so let me ask them to you here. But number one, what's the best piece of career advice you've done? You've had it. You've been in a couple of different industries to find your way to banking. What's the best piece of career advice you got along the way? Don't be afraid to take risks. It doesn't mean be reckless, but don't be afraid to get uncomfortable and to move out of your comfort. So I think that's the best as advice I've ever been...

...given and I've been lucky enough to dispense that advice tyler's in my career. Get outside your comfort zone. That's where all learning happens, right, is when you're a little bit outside your comfort zone. Yes, I tell my kids that when we get skiing. Yeah, I'd say. I say of question. Well, what's the best advice you've gotten about the the consumer banking or lending space? That I this is a pretty inesting one for you with the background and credit risk. What's a maybe I'll focus on that specific it's the best piece of advice you've gotten in that kind of credit risk. I don't know if it's advice as much as it's an observation, but just be your humble, be very humble. I you know, I mentioned by my experience would buy okay later earlier how I was really taken off guard. I'm really trying now to be much more open minded and I'm fascinated by what's going on and then I think you know, it's just things are changing so fast, expecting unexpected. You know, I think John Got Braith, famous economists, said there are two types of economists, those that don't know and those that don't know. They don't know, and that's kind of how you can apply that to, I think, to our industry in general. I mean I thinks are certainly moving fast. I think we all have a point of view, but none of us can be entirely certain. So it goes back to being humble and open being humble. I like. It is this weird inverse relationship I find between knowledge and experiencing humility. In some ways, like the one of my chees was this. I knowledge as a circle. She said, the bigger your circle, the more you know, the bigger the your your the area you contact, the stuff you don't know. And so sometimes the people I find they are most humbler, the ones who know the most and they go I know enough to know, there's a lot I don't know and there there may be more humble in there, but which is really interesting. I like be humble. I think it's so interesting to find it. The people I find it at the most humble are the ones that I feel like have the most right to be Arro again and their level of knowledge and experience, and yet they're the ones who can take a step back and go on, man, there's so much I don't I don't understand so far. Those are wise people. Yes, I try, I try to try to emulate that one. It's hard for me. And my last question. Do you have one bold fruit prediction about the future force banking lending world? And Gen can't do a super bowl prediction. This is going to come out after the Super Bowl. Sound that we're lost that one anyway. But you know, this is again keeping in mind of what I just said. I mean, I I would say I would look for a consortition over the next twenty four months to be developed on from buy now pay laters. I think that the FINTECH infrastructure folks will get around to forming a new network. You know, they're going to want a piece of that economic pie. So I wouldn't be surprised if if you see something like that immersion over the next year. Interesting. I think that that would be a truly fascinating and development because it's a it's a pretty stable part of the ecosystem. That that that consort from network in the Middle Dead. Well, I will I that one be able to hold hold you two and we'll see if you're right. Yeah, jared, thanks for taking the time. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experiences. This was a great conversation. I'm sure the audience will love it well. Thank you very much. Was a real player. Upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does to. UPSTARTS AI landing platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models. With fraud rates near zero, upstarts all digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto lenning programs or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Upstart offers an into in solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile, with all digital...

...underwriting, onboarding, loan closing and servicing. It's all possible with upstart in your corner. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting UPSTARTCOM Ford Banks. That's upstartcom forward banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player. You using apple podcast. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time. The views and opinions expressed by the host and guests on the leaders and lending podcast are their own and their participation in this podcast does not imply an endorsement of such views by their organization or themselves. The content provided is for informational purposes only and the discussion between the host and guests should not be taken as financial advice by companies or individuals.

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