Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 67 · 4 months ago

Leveraging Data to Thoughtfully Position Products and Deepen Consumer Relationships

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Providing consumers with their credit score is table stakes in consumer banking. Now, banks and credit unions can take this a step further to assess where and when consumers are coming back, and how to ultimately use this information to grow their relationships more deeply and into new products.

Enter Array.

Today, Jacob Bouer, Director of Sales and Strategic Partnerships at Array, joins us to break down the concepts banks and credit unions need to know to get the most new credit technologies and their partnerships.

Join us as we discuss:

  • Providing consumers with a better experience surrounding their credit scores
  • How to measure the value fintech partnerships are delivering to end customers and members
  • How to thoughtfully position products and generate next best action capabilities

You're listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation and more. Let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders and lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Jacob Bauer, the director of sales and strategic partnerships at array. I really wanted to bring Jacob on to talk about array because they're really providing technologies to help credit unions and banks embed things like credit monitoring advice offering based on credit data identity monitoring tools into their banking applications. I think it's a really interesting space as banks look at how to provide those kinds of services and also the kinds of advice that can be built on top of those experiences. Jacob and I dived into a lot of that Uh uh, specifically what they're doing, what's working with their partners, how their training staff on the kinds of services that are being built on top, on the ability to bring in third party offers and that experience, as well as offers from the institution and and some of the non banking institutions that are leveraging these services and maybe what that tells us about the future. I thought it was a really interesting conversation. It's a category of innovation that I think a lot of lenders and just consumer banking UH executives, ought to be thinking about and hopefully this conversation provides some perspective on what others are doing and how you can enable these kinds of experiences for your consumers. So with that, please enjoy this conversation with Jacob Bauer. Jacob, welcome to the PODCAST. Thanks for making the time and joining us today. Thank you, Jeff. Glad to be here. Yeah, I've been looking forward to this conversation, but having more fintech conversations and I enjoy them a lot. I think they're very interesting. So, given that you're not a bank or credit union, can you give us for the audience, just like the sixty second version of you and in array and what you eyes do, so we have some context for the rest of the conversation? Sure. So, my name is Jacob Bauer and I am the director of partnerships and sales at Array. At Array, I focused mostly on partnerships that have to do with banks and credit unions. So, uh, don't count me out too far away from from that group of folks. But really those partnerships that I'm working on are, UM, with core providers and digital banking providers that serve those kind of customers, those banks and credit unions. So Um out here for array really helping US embed our technology into the solutions that they're already buying. Right their mobile APPS are on my banking, their websites. How can arrays embedded, credit and identity tools be embedded inside of those experiences where users and consumers are already interacting today, and then enhance that by adding credit and identity tools? So, when you say credit identity tools, can you give me a quick rundown of what those are?...

Yeah, sure. So, Um, we integrate with bureau data and so basically what we're doing is we're working to provide users with a better experience revolving around their credit score, getting access to things like the full credit report, Um, understanding why their score may be the way that it is, Um, ways that they can actually improve that score. Um, and then from there, you know, that same data set that's being used to offer the consumers this insightful information can be used by the institution to also better understand their customers and what products might be most relevant for them. Um, on the identity side, the use cases are a little bit different, but really, you know, everybody needs to have their identity protected and and so these are another group of modules, essentially, that allow the bank to provide um identity protection, identity monitoring, restoration services, insurance products. And the way that we sort of narrow down, like, since we have all these different cool to rules and modules, is we get down to like what is your business like? Who are the clients that you're serving? Are they small businesses? Are they retail customers? Are you selling mortgages? And then there's different modules that make sense for different customer bases, so that custom approaches I think why we've done really well in the market. I'd love to understand how you see consumers engagement this. I think many banks have um some envies, maybe the wrong where they see businesses like credit Carma that have really gotten a high degree of user engagement around things like credit monitoring and they feel like hey, that's that's a level of engagement I'd like to see. I'm curious with your partners, uh, with the F I s, where are they seeing the most engagement with users in terms of the kinds of services or data that people are really kind of coming to and using on a recurring basis? So I think it starts with getting somebody to actually opt in for the service. On the Front End, like you have to basically, Um, you know, create this marketing material to plain why should you check your credit score in the first place? Why is that important? And there's education around that and there's a whole marketing plan that we work with our lenders to to to go out to market with its emails, it's in branch signage, it's educating your bankers, it's it's really all of these things and by the time people opt in because they know the value that they're getting from that. Now it's a matter of how can we use the information that we have to keep people coming back? Um, and so there's all these different types of alerts or reasons why somebody should check their credit or their identity. Um, you know. That could be your score has gone up a certain number of points. There's been a hard inquiry, there's been an address change. So these are all things that we are then now giving these institutions away to reach out to their customers again and say, Hey, something's changed, we've deemed that this is worth you taking a look at this. And when they go and take a look at that, there's other sort of paths that that user can go down to either...

...or um give the institution a better understanding of the intent of that user, because maybe they ran a simulation around. Wait a second, what might happen if I refinance my home? Well, now that simulation is really helpful for the consumer because they now know what might happen to their credit score if they refinance their home. But what the institution now knows is that Jacob is interested in refinancing his home. And so that's sort of how it works. Is You have to provide value on the front end. It needs to be something that the consumer wants to do and engage with. But by providing something like that you learn more about them so that you can offer them the right product at the right time. So two questions come to mind. Let me talk all the first you talk about two things are fascinating to me. For a Fintech company with a digital experience, which is uh, branch employee training and in branch signage Um, which are fascinating elements of driving users to adopting these tools. You can think of a raised tools, but really, in the mind of the consumer, there the banks tools that are being provided at the consumer right so I'm just thinking as an f I or have you learned any lessons about what drives adoption? I mean, is it is it the branch employees? Is it signage? Is Our digital marketing? What's been most effective in your experience as your partners look to actually get their consumers engaging and I think in many ways, with you know, I think many times our interactions with the bank are either transactional in nature or their human mediated in nature. And to come to a service like this that I might have thought of as I go to free credit score DOT COM or I go to Credit Karma or I go to whatever service, I'm now doing it in my bank and that's a different thing than I've done with my institution. What have you learned about the ways that are most effective and getting consumers actually adopt that behavior and come to that banking APP to to do this kind of credit monitoring or simulation kind of activity which is quite different than, I think, what they've traditionally done in a mobile APP. So, with our best partnerships, uh, those digital banking providers allow us to have amazing real estate inside of their mobile apps and on the banking experiences. So that design aspect of being sort of right next to account balances is a really great place to be to drive engagement right off the bat Um, and so that's like, first and foremost, when you log into on my banking you want to see, hey, you can now check your credit score and we can add specific language of like why somebody might want to check their score. On top of that, Um, we are, you know, the way that we work here is we're on the same side as our institutions to promote engagement, because that's how our commercial models are set up. With them. You pay for what's Um sort of used or when we pull credit, that's where we pay the bureau, and so that's why we're sort of partnered with these institutions and growing these accounts. And so you get assigned a growth manager here who is looking to understand how does your branch network work? Um, you know. How can you UM train up employee is so that they can have these conversations so that they can better...

...understand their credit at scale. That doesn't mean that every branch employee needs to teach them how to improve their credit. That's a model that we're moving away from because of this type of technology in the first place. But leveraging those people in the branch to know that exists, why it exists, how to turn it on, that's a really important piece of the launch and I learned this back in my first job at Bank of America in the branch that was where I worked out of college. You know, I used to go up to the line of people waiting for the teller and say, did you know that you could do this on the APP, and they're like no, I didn't. So, no matter how many emails you're gonna send and how scalable that it is getting this communication out, it doesn't matter. You're still going to have to have conversations in person in the branch and let people know that the things that you're investing time and money and resources on exists. And I think a lot of banks have problems like spending all this time and effort on Fintech and then nobody actually using it. So the launch is just as important as the actual build out Um. So that's that's how we feel about it and we're growing a really great team around that. We didn't start there, but when we realized that this is what we needed to do to grow accounts, then it was something that we invested in. And how do your part? I mean you talk about an interesting concept. It's like great real estate right in that mobile APP. And I mean one of the things it was always fascinating to me a tech companies that not fantagist in generals, like the value of the real estate was high, and so we had to justify why does my thing belong here versus something else? And there was usually some kind of r a I calculation or value calculation to win into that. So I'm curious when you're when you're talking to partners, like what are the ways they're measuring the value created by placing these kinds of services in front of the consumers? What are they what are they looking as the outcomes of the outputs or the ways to calculate the value being created by those experiences? So there's a lot of companies out there that are providing of information direct to consumer that have paved the way for companies like array, because I think it's a general understanding that providing a credit score is now table states and digital banking, and so array doesn't necessarily have to spend all of its breadth on explaining why showing somebody that there, you know their credit is important. Um, that's that's been done already. Um. I think where the data really now needs to go into it is how often are they coming back and when they're coming back, how is that being used to translate into a new product sold or a better relationship with that customer? Um, and that's really where, like our data and the time that we spend talking about is really sort of worth talking about. Yeah, so let's talk about that kind of new products solds. I think it's a really fascinating part of what you do in a big kind of culture shift for I think, most f eyes that are used to the next product being sold being I mean we use the word sold because it's generally a manual, you know manual, but a human lad banker, lady conversation,...

...what have you seen for what's been effective at helping your partners both either adopt this technology effectively or drive that acceptance of a more maybe I'll call it a marketing lead as opposed to a sales lead approach to bringing customers of one product into maybe thinking about other products. So it starts with like you know, you have the word up sell and cross sell. That are almost taboo now in banking because you've just seen a lot of bad actors really try to push product and that's not always the right way to think about growth for an institution. So now, with companies like array, and there are many others that can provide context around the financial life of the user through data, you need to be able to leverage that data in a way that's compliant but also relevant to the consumer. And so there's this balance between being overbearing but but all so showing somebody that there's a way to actually improve their financial life or get a better raid or get that car by that house. You know, these are all the things that people want. They don't want alone, they want a house and so, Um, the way that I think about that is, especially as it relates to a credit report, is that the credit report tells a story about a consumer's financial life. Now, it's not Um as granular of a story as maybe their transactions and spending might be. But what is happening is it's talking about how they've borrowed previously and it's talking about what their debt looks like and their scores gone up and these things can now tell you what they're borrowing might look like in the future. I mean there's a reason that people use credit scores and credit reports as an underwriting model in the US, and so by being able to proactively understand that information before somebody actually applies for the product, this is all predecision right. So now I'm better understanding how you think about borrowing. What is your your your score, Um, and and then you know what might be relevant. I'm not going to offer that same mortgage refinance to somebody who doesn't have a home. I'm not going to send a mailer for a personal loan for somebody who's never taken out a personal loan in their life. But maybe, you know, the credit card is a way that they like to sort of Um, you know, do their spending right. So there's a lot of different things that you can uncover and and maybe they have too many credit cards right. You can see those types of things and it's not Um. It's not that you get all this granul information on a credit report. I want to be very clear. There's a rules engine that sits on top of this data that we're using to determine what is the next best action. We're not saying these are all the data points on Jeff Keltner. What we're saying is, based on these data points and based on these ranges predetermined by the lender, they fit into this...

...persona or this product that we want to be recommending at this time. And so that's all happening inside of our solution. There's a place for those banner ads to show up where people can click and see what offers Um might be most relevant to them and when they apply, I guess what the lenders are pulling credit again from a decisioning standpoint to decide how they want to actually underwrite those moans. We're not in that business. That's fascinating. I think this idea of nextbecs action where. How far during the journey of being coming good like there's many cases where people might say we're you know that the human element is really critical for understanding that full life journey and the data points are hard to Parse and figure out the best answer and, like I imagine that's something that you guys see as I don't imagine if you where you're at today is the in state of that. Like, what inning are we in in terms of getting to a good place at next product recommendation? We're in the first inning, absolutely, but I would say, well, yeah, it depends, right, Um, and and I would say there's sort of two ways that I think we can get better at this. The first way is just from a design standpoint. Right, so, how do you now position offers and products for financial products, which are you know, this is not like by these pair of headphones on instagram. This is a big life decision, especially when you're selling loans to people. Um. So I think from a design perspective we want to continue to get better at figuring out how to position these products. Will also giving these institutions the flexibility of how they want to position these products and then just continue to iterate and iterate to get better at that get you more applications essentially, and more products sold. The other side of it is how can we get better at using this data or even think about adding additional data sources to get a better understanding about the customer so that we can make better recommendations for the lenners of what they should be offering. Are you at all at this point integrating the transactional data along with the credit data? You guys vide the transaction that the institution might have in a depository accounts? It feels like those are each important but just parts of the story that are a much more complete picture when you put them together. So I want to be careful here, because we're not doing that today, but there are a ton of amazing companies that are doing that that I'm not crazy to think that maybe it's something that we would think is valuable. Absolutely, I think it would be valuable, and so there are great companies out there that we could partner with to do so or even, you know, try to figure out a way to do it ourselves. At this point that's not in my hands at all. So let me ask you this. One of the things that I know I've seen in our business, uh as just an example, is that sometimes, Um, the product that a consumer needs is not one that the institution has chosen to offer. Right now, many institutions, for instance, don't have credit cards, some haven't traditionally offered a personal loan. They might not be in the auto loan space. Um. So they may see a need for their customer. Yeah, and much like I've used...

...credit carm as an example a couple of times, but I think given the kind of credit checking, credit monitoring example, it's a pretty good one. They you know, I can imagine that financially just going. I want to be there to provide that to my customer, even if it's not a product I have. Is that? Have you guys thought about how you bridge the gap between I'm now in the position to see a need for my consumer, but I don't I don't have the product to offer them. What do I do in that scenario? A great example of this is car insurance, because now you may be able to see that somebody's uh just either got an auto loane with you or another lender Um, that you then may be able to say, well, now we've seen this trade line, you've fallen into this Um, this persona based on this sort of rule set that we've created around Um, finding somebody adding an auto loan to their credit report, to then say, well, there's an insurance provider that we've partnered with to provide this type of car insurance. It may not come from the institution themselves, but they may be able to collect a finder's fee, if you will, and create a revenue stream by connecting their customers with the right products at the right time that they may not even be providing Um. And so the way that I think about that sort of ad widget is what we call it. Could be products of the institution, probably more commonly in that sense, but could also be almost like a blank slate for products outside of the institution, as long as the institution is comfortable, you know, with those products being positioned there. Well, in your insurance example, interestingly not even necessarily purely financial products, and insurance is arguably AEB usually a different a different kind of products. So I think that's a really interesting concept to take what the what the bank is seeing, and I think it's really important, if you want to be that home base that people are touching into, that you can point them in directions that aren't just your products, and I think there's a lot of credibility that comes from from doing that. Yeah, I mean, if you think about like card benefits as an example. Um, you know, I can save a certain amount of money on flights, like. That's not something that the bank is providing, but they're using it as an added value of Um, joining their card, right. Um. So so we can think about it like that. You don't want to go too far off and you want to be included in sort of that buying process, but I think it's it's limitless. But we also want the direction that we're going in in terms of what we're providing to come from the institutions that we're partnering with. It's not like we're just going to say, Hey, we're gonna come to you with this insurance marketplace. We're gonna have them come to us and say this is the products that we want to provide, because, again, we're taking that custom approach around, like what is the institution actually focused on? Who are the people that you're serving, and then how can we partner them with products that make the most sense? Interesting, and now I want to take I want to ask you almost the reverse of this, which is I understand that you have some non financial some institutions that are getting into this game with...

...you as well, that are that are not banks, are credit unions, but are offering some of these kind of credit monitoring or I D monitoring services. Um. I think I think it's really interesting. It's part of this trend nicely towards embedded finance where I'm hearing more and more about kind of financial experiences being embedded by applications that aren't financially oriented in general, but they're they're kind of bringing some of that experience. And so talk to me Atle bit about what kinds of you don't have to give me specific customer examples if you don't want to, but what kinds of experiences are you seeing that built into and why do you think we're seeing that kind of financial monitoring making its way into home places that are not financially oriented nature? So I want to start with someone who is financially oriented but not a banker, and Credit Union, which is a Fintech obviously, and the fin techs, they sort of have a different way of thinking about it because they know this is obviously a very engaging tool, um, and so while they may not be lending, or maybe not lending a bunch of different products, they still want to have the function of the credit tools or the identity tools for different reasons. One they may want to actually charge the consumer, let's say, a subscription fee monthly for a sort of fully enhanced three bureau credit monitoring or, you know, an identity protection with all the bells and whistles. So that could be their sort of revenue opportunity by embedding array in and bundling it with all the other products that they're creating. Another model could be, you know, we just want to have an APP that people are going to come back to regularly, and credit is a great wedge to actually do that. Um and so that's coming up a lot where engagement is kind of the number one value problem. We work with these fintechs. But now there's this pressure for a lot of these fintechs to actually start lending, because that's a great way for them to create revenue and make their shareholders happy, of course, and so for them to understand what products they should be bringing to market, why not have a better understanding of the credit attributes of your users to know hey, based on the sort of offers engine work that we've done with the Ray, we now know that a personal loan product makes more sense than a credit card product, so on and so forth, so that information can also be used for product for road map purposes, Um, to basically figure out, based on the persona creation that you're doing with the ray, which groups of customers fit into which buckets where certain products might be relevant. All right now I want to ask you this. What. Well, is there anything you've seen? As you, I mean you're kind of an interesting point of the deployment of this technology out in the real world. Is there anything you've seen over the last period of time you work on this it's surprised you, like, what's the most surprising example? Use Case Consumer Behavior Implementation experience that's surprised you. The most surprised me? Well, I've had lots of stuff just didn't go the way I thought. Well, I think I was surprised by how eager digital banking for fighters out there, UM, such as Jack Henry or Alchemy,...

...wanted to kind of work with us and and offer this to their clients. Um, I think we've done a great job at finding the right partners that are willing to Um, lean into these partnerships, do the right marketing and get the word out to their clients. Um, you know, we're we're not that old of a company. We're just over two years old, and so working with banks and credit unions is part of the like maturing of a company, right we started with working with fin tech. Now we're working with banks and credit unions and and it was time for us to sort of grow up and figure out how to answer all these questions, all the while like uh, answer the regulators questions to make sure that we were doing everything about board and so Um. You know, I'm I was happy to hear but also surprised that, like we were able to just find so much success and find such great partners so quickly. Interesting. What's your advice for f eyes that are looking maybe not start partnering with you, but getting into the space means you talk about getting into the regulatory and understanding. This is kind of a new set of capabilities. Many partners are looking to expand into one of the things they should be you know, the lessons you've learned along the way. Things you'd say, Hey, if you're getting into the space, here's either from a regulatory point of view or from a consumer behavior and adoption point of view. Key lessons learned you share with the audience I'm like, well, what it takes to make something like this successful in work for the institution. So don't feel bad about throwing the venit due diligence packet or asking a ton of questions or putting your lawyers on the fin techs and saying, I know it's annoying, but this is how you know, we need to handle our process to be able to work with you and do it as early and as often as possible, because at the end of the day, like we said, Ben Techs needs to mature to work with banking credit unions because it's a highly regulated industry and and so Um. But we can't just sort of make our process is too simple, because then they'll never learn. And so I think for any institution, UH, don't be afraid to sort of sick your compliance and legal teams on these Fintechs, because at some point they're going to have to learn. It's almost like a make or break situation. I, for one, I'm lucky to have a really great team to support me around this stuff. UH, it gets to a point where the questions but get over my head and I need to bring in the experts to answer those questions. Um, and I also think we're lucky because we're highly regulated by the bureaus and what we do, every use case needs to be approved by them as well, and so, Um, you know, we have to do everything above board anyway, whereas other fin techs, they don't necessarily have to be regulated until their clients are regulated. If that makes sense. That doesn't make sense. That's interesting. So you guys actually have that's not exactly regulation because they're not government entities, but real requirements on what you can do with the coming from the bureaus themselves. That's interesting. That's always fun.

Uh, it is fun when you can answer things correctly. There you go. And any advice for you on for any Fintechs who might be listening about that maturation process? Things you wish you'd done earlier in terms of getting ready to deal with banks, credit unions, Um, how you can kind of ease your way into that that experience. It is definitely a learning curve, in my experience. So, just like the banks shouldn't shy away from throwing the questions at the Fintechs, the Fintech should lean into getting those questions asked to them. It's like, Hey, if you as a part of your process, are going to throw a ten page document or questionnaire at us? Do it two weeks ago rather than right before we're about to sign the deal. I think people are, you know, thinking that they might get away with not having to answer those hard questions. Well, guess what, you never will, and so getting ahead start on it's actually better in any case, then thinking that you're you're gonna get six months, eight months down the road without having to do it, because you will. Yeah, the other the other piece of advice I've always tried to give the Fintechs I've talked to. It's kind of like, if you know it's coming, be ready for it. Don't make this a one Q and a process, like you know you're gonna get asked these twenty questions, like have your here's the twenty questions you're gonna ask me, and here's my answers, document or policies or procedures ready to go, because it's you know, I find we now have a diligence packet and we basically handed to our partners and I've never it's never like here. It is leave us alone, uh, and it answers all the questions, but of stuff people want to know is already prepared and ready, and then you look a lot more professional having that ready to go. And then there's always a five percent that's you need, question of perspective, a historical thing that somebody wants to understand a little better. But I think it behooves you to not view that as like Hey, ask me whatever you need to know and I'll answer it for you, but I have a feeling these are the things you need. We've got it ready for you, so you can review it when you're ready and get ahead of that process and control it a little bit. I think really helps a lot. Absolutely, and there's solutions out there to help Finn Techs do that. I come across them all the time and, uh, we sort of lean into using technology to help us in our own process as well. And also that's the sales sales people right like they're always calling you trying to sell you. Yeah, exactly. All right. Anything else you wanted to cover? You thought I didn't ask today. I've got my three closing questions, but I'll give you a chance to tell me I missed the topic that we should dive into before I get to him. No, I don't think we miss anything. Um, you know it's it's always fun talking to Jeff that I could talk for hours. Anyone who knows me knows that I could literally just fill your ear for the next three hours if and it could be about Finn check or it could be about anything else. So, Um, you know, all these questions have been great. You've been great, Jeff Awesome. Well then, here's my three closing questions that I ask all my guests. I'm gonna throw him atch and out, Jake. Number One, what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gotten? The best career advice that I've ever gotten that I don't think I always actually follow is before you react to something, take a second breathe, think about whether or not it's actually that big of a deal and...

...in respond. Um, I think that's something that you know. I I've learned from many people, many great leaders, that uh, you know, that keep their their cool, cool as a cucumber when bad things happen and it always seems to work itself out in the end. Interesting, it feels like the old don't hit sent until the morning on your angry email kind of the real time it feels like good life advice. Shake I'm not just good career advice but good just general happiness in life and personal circumstances advice as well. So you came in, like like me, kind of through the fintech angle into the into the consumer banking space. But what's the best advice you've gotten about the consumer banking or consumer lending industry as a whole? Well, I was lucky enough to work at the venture center before I worked at Array, and the Venture Center is a nonprofit that runs these accelerator programs for F I s in the I C B a connecting their community banks or a F I S is credit union clients, respectively, to Fintech, relevant Fintech solving problems for these institutions, and so I was the middleman between the Fintech and the institution, teaching them how to speak the same language. And so that experience of hearing the questions coming from the institution, hearing the pictures coming from the Fintechs and trying to help them figure out a way to work together and connecting the dots taught me, from an unbiased perspective, how to be really, really valuable. From a very biased perspective, now that I'm obviously associated with array, and so now you can sort of assume what questions are going to be asked. What do they really care about? Is it price that matters the most of this institution? Is it Um, you know, doing something out of the goodness of their heart from a financial illness perspective? Is it so that they can uh sell more loans or open up more accounts or uh, you know, all these different types of scenarios. Every institution is different and I and the way that I think about sales is almost like a spider web. If you hear something, then go down that path and then it could open up into two different directions. Because so that's kind of how I go into my sales process. And an understanding institution is just like figuring out their business and then sort of going the direction that that conversation leads me and tying it back to the value prop of our product, which I think is pretty dynamic interesting. In my last question, what's one bold prediction for the future? Can Be related to this or totally not up to you, but one something can bring you back here and tell you you were wrong or right. So I think the core banking world is going to change drastically, that it's almost being forced to become this open ecosystem where any bank can bring any tool or any fintech with them. I think there's already a lot of pressure for that to happen. However, a lot of these cores are in a place where they don't necessarily have to do that. Yet I think they...

...want to and it's not easy, and so everybody's sort of eyeing the same vision and I think we'll get there. You said five years right. I think we could do it in five years. That is a bowld prediction. That seems to be a now that the core providers are gonna call me and complain, but a slow moving segment of the space in terms of and some incentives the other way. But I do think ultimately the open banking, the interconnectivity, the benefits of the consumer is so strong the push is going to be there to make those things happen and you see laws in Europe that are demanding open banking requirements on on these some of these technologies and these institutions to allow portability and accessibility of data. I think that's a it maybe a bowld prediction in five years, but I think that the trend in history is clearly in that direction. It's an exciting future, I think, for consumers and for anybody trying to build interesting technologies on top of that data, because it makes for a lot of a lot of surface area for innovation. Exciting Times. Absolutely agreed, Jeff. Well, Jacob, thanks so much for joining me today. This was a fun conversation hopefully insightful for the audience. I appreciate you're taking the time for it. Thank you, Jeff. It was fun. Hopefully we can do this again. Upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. Up Starts AI lending platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models, with fraud rates near zero. Up Starts All digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto learning programs or you're just getting started upstart can help. Up Start offers an end to ind solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile, with all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing and servicing. It's all possible with upstart in your quarter. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting upstart dot com slash four dash banks. That's upstart dot com slash four dash banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to leaders in lending in your favorite podcast player using apple podcasts. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

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