Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode · 1 year ago

Driving Loan Demand Through Marketing Personalization

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Cash is up and loan demand is down.One way to navigate this challenge is by driving demand through personalized marketing.

Personalization is especially effective for credit unions. After all, as community-based organizations, they’re most effective when they are interacting with their communities at all times.

Chad Van Handel, Chief Lending Officer at Unison Credit Union, shares why personalization in marketing is so important.

We discuss:

- Transitioning from an agency to in-house marketing

- Community interaction at multiple touchpoints

- Using business lending as an income diversification strategy

- Near-term opportunities for credit unions to expand

To hear more from Leaders in Lending, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Leaders in Lending on your favorite podcast player.

Yeah, mostly we're trying to be available, you know, when I remembers need us, when they want us, and be Ableo K at to speak to him at that time. You are listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finest industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation. In more let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders and lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's conversation is with Chad van Handel, the chief lending officer of Unison Credit Union. Chat and I delve into their plans around building more personalized marketing and how they can really extend the high touch nature of in person interactions into the digital world, why they've begun investing in more kinds of business lending outside of the more traditional consumer focus on consumer lending and why that's they think of really great strategy in terms of diversifying their income streams and a few of the other initiatives. Chat is a lot around really how they're putting excess deposits to work with again and one of those emerging themes around excess deposits and way to put them to work quickly. Think it's a pretty interesting conversation, continuing on our theme of talking to some credit unions, and chat has maybe the boldest of bold predictions. Love for you to listen to the ind and see if you agree or disagree with his take, but it's it's nothing if not bold, so please enjoy the conversation. Chad, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast today. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, I've been looking forward to this conversation. So you and I were talking in advance and you hit on one of these areas that you guys have focused on that I feel like is underinvested in by a lot of the financial incisions I talked to, specifically the personalization of marketing. So I'd love to dive into, like you know, what you're doing in that space and kind of your journey trying to get from maybe where you started and why you felt like that was an important thing to invest in. Sure. Yeah, so I had worked at most of my career has been a bigger, larger organizations and they had this you know, the vcrm that was out there,...

...and so then it crm. They also had some marking animation that was tied to it and it made the selling just just that much easier for me. It, you know, brought leads into my inbox. It allowed me to sell more effectively. Versus cold calls, there was a lot more warm calls. And so coming to this horrorization, you know, I really saw that that we could kind of utilize, that we could make our time more effective, more, you know, just more efficient by being able to increase the marketing automation and in historically we had worked with an agency. We had paid a large amount of money to the agency and they give us back some reports, but you know, it wasn't always great rewards. We didn't know if the marketing was hitting the target or not. And and so we we pulled it in Allis and we've been we've been on that journey now for us two years. Wow, how do you think about the investments you have to make to go from an agency model where you know a lot of the process, the technology, the people is kind of outsource? Right? It's not. It's not yours. Then you got to build some of that capability in house. Yeah, how do you think about where those you know, the where the investments are? If anybody just assume somebody had this. Listen, here's going. Hey, we got an agency. We're thinking about going in house. Like, what's your advice for what you need to do to get that transition right and set yourself up for success running that stuff internally? Sure, right. I think a lot of the out tech companies out there have made it easy from an analytics standpoint. I mean you can build that that muscle internality of these days to be able to reach analytics see what kind of tracking is going to a website and and what that all means. That and beyond that, there's there's a lot of other companies that are out there, all across the spectrum. You know, you can pay a lot of money and you can pay a little bit of money, but all of them have, you know, some capabilities where you can you can do it in house and you don't have to have somebody outside or pay somebody outside to do it. Interesting and we're they're like staffing particular kinds of roles you were looking to bring on, like what was that kind of like? The people's side of the investment that made the most sense to you. Yeah, we have hand.

We had a VP of marketing that we added in the last two years. That's kind of helped with that. Then she's also had some additional staff to be able to make sure we're going into the marketing automation and be able to see the tracking and that we're getting the use out of all the stuff that's coming in through out the machine at so speak. Yeah, now, I'm curious how you think about I mean, one of the things I learned is I got into the the financial industry space, was at the business model really revolves around multiple transactions per customer, that the cost to acquire usually doesn't make sense. For a singular product. Maybe it does, but it's not super profitable, but you want that customer coming back, and so figuring out I think a lot of the history of how we did that was the branch, the relationship. People came in, they needed something that had a relationship, and I feel like that's shifting now where people are browsing the web, they're doing the things, and so that that proactive outreach. You think of the moving from kind of a sales and branch. My employees know how to talk to something about the right product. That's how I get them to transact. Now I got to figure out, when somebody needs a p product, what the right message is, how I hit them, what the right medium? How do you think about how you build a strategy to really get that right offer in front of that right customer at the right moment so that the marketing is effective and not kind of do you know? I think we're talking only people often like unsubscribing. How do you make it relevant, timely? What are the kind of secrets you have in that fracts? It feels like that's a huge part of what you have to get right to make this successful, but it seems like a pretty big challenge to actually be able to execute that effectively. Yeah, so, so, definitely not experts and we're out of a journey right now trying to figure out what is that right way to connect with that right member at the right time when they want that right product and mostly but we're trying to be available, you know, when our members need us, when they want us, and be able to kind of speak to him at that time. Trying to build of any channels that we can. We can have them go to the web and put it alone APP you know, at ten o'clock at night if that's what they want to do. When then need arises, be able to again transact on their time is really important for us. So, you know, as we kind of work our marketing as we kind of tweaked things and try to provide good resources to our members...

...and perspective members, utilizing kind of the data that comes in. Who's clicking on what? You know, what are they click it on and where they go from there, and then just continue to kind of build that institutional knowledge of what we've seen, what these patterns are that we've seen and how can we goilize that going forward with our with our marketing spend. Are there any particular patterns that you've seen that stick out to you? I mean, it seems like one of the questions, like when somebody's in market for certain kinds of products, feels like an interesting question for how you trying. And then if I but I'm curious if you've found any patterns in the data that are maybe they are into it. If sometimes the best patterns are like they make sense in retrospect, but then you didn't predict them. Looking at it in advance. But are there are the things that stick out to you that are interesting kind of patterns you've identifying in that work the far? Yeah, and I wish I could say that there are. At this point again, I think we're still a little bit too early and I think the only pattern we've seen at that there's no pattern, basically. I mean we have members that have been with us for a very long time that you know we we've been doing mortgages for the last couple of years and it didn't know we did it. And although we've had a bunch of newsletters and we've had banners that have kind of been out saying that we do some of this stuff, I think one of the things that's very interesting to do a poll on our on our marketing news letter, and just the engagement we're getting with that pole is very interesting. So it's okay, so people you know, like like interacting here. How can we how can we make it a little bit more wellness based or, you know, financial education based, so that that they're interacting with with that content as well? Yeah, it's interesting. I do think the newsletters interesting concept that I'd be curious to history and how you think about that because I do think a lot of times digital marketing for or outreach for many institutions is kind of like we put on the website and they so often people come to the website to do something and they don't really want to engage with content or like, like I came to pay a bill, to apply for a loan, to transfer some money from here to there, and I don't want to do something else, I want to go the shortest path between A and B. But then we're trying to inject that kind of educational content and the newsletter feels like an interesting you know, it's not the I came to...

...the site to do something and I we put a link up here, you know, here's how to do better retirement planning or whatever. But it's kind of in the middle. So tell me a little bit about the history of the newsletter and how you think about, I would the role that fills in your customer journey. Sure, I mean as a community based organization, we're trying to interact with a community all times and you know, we again we don't know where our members want to interact with us, and certainly this newsletter. We had some email addresses, we had people that were opting into the receiving communications from us, and so it just kind of, you know, move from there. And then it's also kind of moved to a point where we're asking for that email address, asking for that permission to provide an that newsletter and keep a mark on what the kred unions doing and try to share a little bit of personal side about the Credion, but I also make sure we can provide some wellness and education to them as well. I like it. Do you know, in a perfect world I would love to see our website be a place where we could house resources, where your where people spend time, where it's obviously we're not going to be a social media network on our website, but to be able to engage people and in build that I think would be a you know, a great endgame at some point, because it again, I think you can keep people there. It can be a little bit stickier, but it is going to take a lot of investment to do that. In my senses, you absolutely can do that. The challenge is, if you think they're going to organically show up at the site for that, you're wrong. So that it's I think it's a question of how do you have the right content, information that's engaging, but also how do you let them know and bring them to that content or surface it to them in that moment, at that time when it's relevant, in a way that's not pushy, because they're not like they're not randomly browsing your side. Had I got some reading time like that's I think that's the that's where I think that personalized marketing become so interesting, because it's like, if I have the resource, I've now got to I got to get the resources in front of the person, and the website's a great place to house them, but I got to get them there and I've got to do that, probably on a repeat basis and a timely manner, and that's where I think that that personalized marketings are really interesting strategy and one I'd love to see really well invested in by many flies. I think there's a ton of opportunity to drive value for your customer when you can do that. But there's so many resources that are just sitting there like hanging on the side of the website and nobody, nobody...

...goes there. Or you know, we had a blog for a while that we use new you'd posted and you'd advertise on social media and it would be really big for while and then it would just like not be anymore. And so how you highlight the right content to the right customer in the moment? That's I think that the magic of that is not that where is it live, but how do you how do you surface it when they're not really like rousing? I'm looking. I think we have to find you have to find that niche and and then kind of build, build a base from their kind of get that core group of followers and then you and then kind of build from Mares. It's one of the ways to do it. I mean, we're going to certainly take some failures along the way. We would try to do some seminars and in person things and webinars. That just didn't get a out of buying from people as much as we've got eighteen thousand members, you know, and we're trying to blast it all over different channels. People just weren't the weren't biting on, you know, what we're selling, or the tailor I just wasn't, you know, wasn't sticky enough for them to want to, you know, register and show up or something like that. Now I want to dive into something else because you kind of like, you know if I if my intuition of banking has been built around banks. You kind of flip the the the story on me and our conversation earlier, which is I think many traditional financial institutions, of many banks are kind of very consumer or sorry, commercial real estate, commercial lending focused and have like this consumer business. It's mostly mortgages and then some stuff, but pretty small outside of that. But many credit you uns are kind of reversed and you guys made a choice to kind of add more business lending to the mix as a diverse of a case. So I hear about a lot about consumer lending being the banks to versific EH strategy. For you guys business lending was like an income diversification strategy, which was kind of a different perspective that it was interesting. Tell me a little bit about your journey to decide, hey, we want to get into a little bit more business lending and the kinds of things you're doing there. Sure. Yeah. So. So the decision does actually predate my time with unison. I've been your two years, but but three years ago they really decided they wanted to persify their revenue stream away from just kind of consumer and retail and in Ventura with business learning space, and so I you know, between kind of that first six months after they watched it, I was at a bigger bank that was being acquired. Actually are selling their...

...branches to a to a local bank, and it was a good breaking point for me to kind of look for something else. And I actually grew up in the town, you know, ten minutes away, or not even ten, probably five minutes away from our headquarters here in northeast Wisconsin for innocent and it was just a perfect fit for me to kind of come back and do that community banking and as we looked at, you know, where can we play in his business learning space? Really the the rental property investing was was a place that jumped out. I mean we understand real estate, we understand mortgages. You know, this is just kind of taken it to the next step and people that have w two jobs or looking to just build that that separate passive income stream. It's good. It's a good move for somebody to kind of, you know, look at buying a property and kind of jump it into land learning at some point. So how do you think about you know, getting the institution ready to underwrite and understand and kind of risk, because my understanding is this kind of loan, because you're you're relying someone on the income stream from the rental to to afford the payment, it's underwritten quite differently than like a traditional mortgage, where you looking at the w two going, you know, can the income pay the bill? And here it's kind of like can the rental income pay the bill? So it's pretty different. I'm curious how you think about building out the capability and then also how you think about getting, you know, risk committees in other groups within the institution on board with a different look at how you underwrite risk in this way, because it is it's pretty different in on some traditional metrics those kind of loans can look extremely risky right, like no, I can't afford to houses at once and make those payments and like most people probably can, and so the second home looks very risky on a traditional sense from that perspective. So how do you think about both the building the capability to underwrite it well and then bringing the institution along in the decision to to accept that kind of different approach? Sure, and it's two separate situations. There's the the first time landlord and then there's certainly the person that's got the portfolio. For some of that's a most time landlord. You know it. It's kind of just relying on, you know, what did they do in their job history and they use credit appropriately. The numbers makes sense. Are they kind of is their plan...

...makes sense. And and then and then buy it into that vision. You know, look at the collateral. You know see it that they've got some money for a down payment and then, you know, helping up put the numbers together some of the places that have a lot of renovation. So that also working. Okay. How can we, you know, for these renovations, whether the project or do you have our reserves outside the project to get these taken care of? So that so that's that's as one piece of it. Obviously, credit score is another one which in obviously you guys are more realised right out of sorry, the cards. Care, for better for worse, ends to be something we also tend to look at from a portfolio standpoint. There's also a lot of messiness with a portfolio, whether you've got repairs expense on a specific property or you've got other types of expenses that are one time expenses. So it's working through the numbers, trying to understand, you know, what does this look like in a perfect world or on a future twelve month basis, and then being able to kind of build, build that model that that can service the debt and then it's not overleveraging somebody. Yeah, O, there other areas of business lending that you are looking at outside of the kind of like, you know, first time landlord or kind of probably the I'll say the rental property kind of model, which is really what we talking about. Their other kinds of local business lending that are intriguing to you or that you guys see a lot of opportunity. And Yeah, and so so we do certainly do order occupy businesses if they've got a piece of real estate. Will Do, you know, do the real estate typically as an easy type of a transaction for us. Will do some equipment for those businesses. But you know, really, I think, you know, I just see this the world because of the Internet and shopifies in some of these these ways that people can sell online. I just think that there's definitely a world where people can do a side hustle where they can you know, take that hobby, that woodworking hobby or something else and really refine that and turn that into a small secondary income stream at first and then and then build up that stream, you know, to the point where may may kind of be their primary stream at some point. Yeah, it's how do you think about underwriting that kind of risk in investing those businesses, because it's like lots of niche businesses, lots of niche markets. Understanding the opportunity in the risks. It's a pretty you know, we think about this in terms of areas where...

...the kinds of analysis we do and we're risk is poorly understood and hard to define and and you could act expand access if you could define it better. But it feels like a pretty diverse set of risks and different set of like criteria. Is that? Is that a manual process, which is people you've got that know the industries, or how do you think about approaching understanding risk in a context like that? Yeah, yeah, it's really on. It's it is he lacks and it's some consumer unsecured loans for again, for people that have kind of built up that that credit profile. That that makes sense. HMM. And so it's I think that's that's the way that it starts. But but then, you know, yeah, once you start getting a couple years underneath your belt, there's certainly ways to be able to do that more on the business side. But yeah, I think at first as it starts with kind of utilizing some of the personal lines of credit and he lacked and things like that, have a builable to yourself and then, like I said, building up, build at that business and being able to show what you can do with it. It kind of kind of ladder up that credit utilization as you as you as you grow. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, more fictional approach. I like it. I'm just fascinated this kind of like investing in the business space because it's something it's near and your use as well, and I think a challenging thing to do. Like the small businesses are hard to support but so valuable for your community when you can do it right and actually enable those businesses are grown to thrive. So I know you and I were also talking in advance about maybe the most common topic. I'm I kind of feel like a broken wreck when I talk about like, you know, cash up, loan, demand down. What do we do and you know obviously investing in business lending and trying to drive some demand through personalise marketing or two ways you kind of respond to how do I drive more lending assets onto the onto the balance sheet? How do I think about, you know, proving that ratio? But you know, I think you guys have done some other things in the what do we do more immediate term to put some of that cash to work? Can you talk me through some of those and I know sometimes the ways credit used you to approach these things are different than banks. So, assuming that everybody is a credit union in the audience, can you can you walk us through kind of how, as a credit union, you you take advantage in the opportunities there in the near term? Sure. Well, first a kind of earn the ground works. So we have six branches throughout northeastern scots and Appleton to Green Bay, COPECCO. So so...

...you know, we've just been very good generating deposits in our footprint and so even pre two thousand and twenty we were able to have a very high deposit to loan ratio and so we've been been working to kind of again deploy those deposits prutinently throughout the throughout the market into loans. But Two thousand and twenty hits and the gap widens a little bit. So we've been kind of scrambling it kind of make sure we can make those good investments, that we're not sitting with all these customer deposits, that we are putting them to work. So we have done some we purchase some loan pools are we've done some loan participations on the NB AL side, number of business landings side. We have also started to look at, or we're kind of down the path of trying to look at, other channels. We want to make again, making the the creadit inaccessible all people at all times that you know that they're looking to do business. We have gone down a new motor origination system that we're working on. It's going to be more of an online application and then that the end state of it is to have an automated approval process that you know instantly or a few minutes, you get a decision, hopefully at the end of that, and then that will take, like I said, to take some of that pressure off of our team to have to underwrite those deals. If we can get the top right, right and then, like I said, gets that member the instant approval that they want and they can move forward with kind of what they want to do with it. Yeah, I think that that motion to it's probably one of the other I was asked last night in a conversation with our team, like one of the themes I've gotten from the from the podcast. So I think one of the really interesting ones is this. How do we reduce the administrative burden on our team members? Our staff are call center to the process loans, to review documents, to look at applications and move them to what we were talking about earlier. How do you give advice and consultation and in allow that kind of automated decision? You say yeah, when you're ready to transact, that should be easy, but the decision of how and win and what to transact with is a more complicated thing where our team members have a lot of value to add to customers to understand...

...the options there. So I think that moving down to time, no, it's not. is we always want technology projects to be like one and done, but I find they're much more iterative, additive and they they they come in phases and time. But I think that motion towards you automated decisioning is the right path to where you get to a good place for to be able to kind of you know, it's not like you're letting go of people, you're really helping them move up the value chain in terms of what they do with the customers in their interactions. Yeah, and we're two hundred and ninety million dollar organizations, so I mean, I think we're smaller than some of the other institutions you've talked with. Obviously we don't have, you know, a war chest of funds and be able to invest in technology. So we're fortunate that the Credit Union service organizations that are out there that we can we can work with that can help us kind of kind of build that technology and customize it the best we can kind of within a parameter it. It's just been it's been great for us and, yeah, helping us be able to control growth is kind of the path we want to want to go on. Can you describe, you know, what a que show is for the for the audience enders, or maybe you're not as familiar? And then you talked about loan participations and I love you to dive a little bit into. I think that often goes hand in hand with some of the Quesos you work with, how those work and in why why there's value for you and that kind of model. Sure, yeah, it's so credit union service organization again, is basically a bunch of credit unions that came together to invest in in a technology that seem to make sense for for a majority of credit unions. And and so then they've been able to build a team that can market that product or service out to the credit unions throughout the country. And Yeah, we've, like I said, we'd be able to kind of use their expertise and, you know, see what other Creditians are doing, some of our pure creditans and other parts of the country. And and yeah, that's been invaluable for us to to build our balancy and build our build our capabilities. And then moving on to the law participation, same thing. I mean we've got a key so actually in the southern part of the state that that brings a bunch of Credians together is able to show us some deals that they that came through their doors and then, you know, we're able to look at the...

...list profile see if it fits with kind of where we want to go and then be able to, you know, throw some money at a deal to be able to help a business get some financing. Yeah, I love that model because it is it's so true that, for for community community of credit uns or community banks, more community oriented institutions that are smaller, like the scale involved and implementing and deploying a technology project. Frankly, just diligencing technology or our partners it can be can be daunting, not just the purchase but even just the like how do I manage? How I get the staff to understand and go through the process, and so the kind of coming together to to kind of share the expense and resource and then take advantage of the opportunities. I think is a really interesting model for community based institutions, something else we've been learning about and I think it's a it's a fascinating approach and it gives you guys the ability to diversify a little bit about having to fully invest into, you know, particular technology product area up front. was there anything else on your list that you wanted to talk about to that I forgot to ask about. No, be beyond beyond that, I mean obviously the the fraud and subsecurity pieces is something that kind of keeps you up at night. I mean, you know, we're dependent on our employees to kind of fair it out any of these potential situations and so again, any any any cyber security attach could could kind of cripple us at some point. But we've been very fortunate that again to as a small organization that really kind of have good partners that watch over us, and then also making sure that that our staff is also keeping an eye on kind of everything that's going on out there. And I'm acting then the shifting from you. You brought up cyberscers of a cures in there. Then in the incidents recently, not that you have to go into rings physics up it like any kind of change in threat profile or things in the more immediate term that make that more top of mind than think. We all kind of live constantly bring the news going, Oh, somebody got hacked in, my credit card number got out the door last week for the umpteenth time. Right, being offered credit protection by the fifth guy this year. Wow. Other than that, where I think it's come always, you know, on the mind to some expend other reasons. That comes to...

...the top of your mind in the near term. Yeah, some of the government simulus funds have been a little cloudy. People that always know what, you know, what was coming in, what was going out. So I think people have kind of fraud scerts of use that as a way to confuse people and trick them into doing some things that they shouldn't be doing, you know, providing count numbers or different information like that. Same thing with the PPP funds and like a that just different unemployment funds, just a lot of different schemes that are out there. So making sure we understand you know why your requesting this, why you're you know, did the personality? Did you really speak to somebody on the other end? Is it somebody you travel is it or is it something that, like I said, it is a little bit ffichy? Some then we teach our employees and make sure we're asking questions and trying to really get at the harder what they're looking to do. And that goes back to it just customized approach, you know, trying to again differentiate ourselves and make sure they have someone they could talk to, something they can reach to answered. It's a really good point that, as you've got government programs trying to stimulate the economy and put put money into circulation. That like that equals an opportunity if you're a bad guy in a heightened sense of risk, if you're, you know, on the in the distribution chain, so to speak, where you've got to be here about, you know, how you're being smart about where that money goes out. It's a certainly something we see commune. There's a constant and there's just a level of you know, attack, and some of them quite sophistically these days. All right, exactly interesting. Well Chat. I appreciate the the conversation. This was great. I think you know that I typically, and that's with the same three questions. So we've done this long. I most people not listen to the PODCAST. They know these things are coming, but you know, let me, let me ask it to you. I'm curious what you have to say. So my first questions always what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gotten? So I think the best piece of career advice I've gotten is you know, you'll never regret learning a little bit about our emerging technology. HMM. I just you know, when I was high school, just learning type and learning about myself, order and exile and borer point. I mean, I think just being able to take a little bit of time learn how to type that send me a part for that first internship. I mean I was...

...able to kind of although a dot of the experience of work experience, you know, I was able to kind of work the technology and kind of talk to talk in some reguards with that. So I just think, you know, there's so many you know, so many courses. You can find out their free courses that you can learn about the technologies out there. So take a little bit of time, do a you know, do a module, try to try to teach yourself what's out there because, like I said, you'll never regret that and it'll certainly kind of help you help with your career forward. Are there emerging technologies now, like if you were twenty two, twenty three coming out of college, going Hey, I want to I want to figure out the emerging stuff. It's different than it was when when you were in school or I was in able or what would be on your list of top two or three things you'd want to dive into if you were, if you were that age now? Maybe you still doing it. Even now I still do that but I'm curious what's on the top of your list of emerging technologies to be on top of. Well, not not really an emerging technology, but I'll tell you. I mean it a digital s our camera. I mean it's super daunting because there's a lot of buttons and stuff on there, but I mean taking some time to just kind of learn out how the camera works and all they can be learned about learning photography. I think that's something that, you know, everybody should have a basic understanding of, I mean, and then move that moves on the Photoshop. I mean photoshop can be a very intimidating type of auduct as well with a lot of different things. But you know, if you can learn what's informed shop, there's a lot of other APPs of out that can do some of that editing at a at a different pace for you, but you know, learning enough to bolt of a photo shop take it, take a class there. You know, like I said, you can move on and learn other types of stuff like that. So, like my son's interested in photography. So we've had to go through exposures and yeah, focal links and aperture versus, shutter speed and you know, it's fascinating to understand the details, even if most of the time you just with about yourself on important class. You know, you can do a lot if you understand it's a little bit about about things work. You know, sorry, excel to I mean as much as you know. There's a lot ours about there. There's a lot of cool things you can to excel that have really come out just in the last, you know, five years and as much as I learned it early on in my career, you know, a refresher on something like that with just again some of...

...the ways you can you can sort data or use data or, you know, extrap away things that, like I said, I think that's always good too. Gotta know how pivot tables work, and that too probably gonna have pivot tables work. Yeah, yeah, even I mean with some of the less invest work with. I mean to have them get in new excel and be able to just kind of work some of their numbers. You've had a basic level. Like I said, that that helps the world for us to be able to, you know, you have some explain why these numbers, you know, go together the way they do and you know, being able to move quicker through that than having to you know, physically add things up, you know, using some of the calculations that are in there. Like I said, I when I skill a lot of like I we call our analyst team and we'll look the go ahead. Yeah, Ritch Chiet, just felt the man exactly understand it. Of Yourself is actually I do think it's a pretty valuable go I agree. Second question, what's the best advice you've gotten about consumer lending or consumer finance? Sure, the best advice I've gotten about that is you know that that every touch with a member customer is unique, and so it's easy for me, as somebody who's done this, you know, hundreds thousands of times, you know, just to move through the motions to getting that routine. I mean, that might be the first time experiencing unison, that might be the first time or first time in a couple of years of coming into the Credit Union, and we just need to make sure that we treats individual uniquely customized approach, make sure you're asking the right questions or or, you know, trying to help them consider things they gonna be considering because, like I said, that that first impression is so important and, like I said, we want to we want to get off on the best foote. With those new members. Feels like if you can, if you can turn that into a digital touch to your personalized marking, that's really that ought to be the goal, right, that personalized experience went on with that unique experience. Actually, all right, my last question. What's a bold prediction for the future? I was dreading this one because there's not a too many time to prepare you, you know. Yeah, Spot. So I think what my bold prediction is that I'm certainly somebody that skating to where the puck is going, you know, trying to t trying to stay a hard you know what Fintech firms are out there. I think my bold...

...prediction is going to be in the next ten years, one of the top four banks is not going to exist in its present form. You know, and whether you know what, thanks for Bull Chat. Know what you know. I'm not smart enough to know what that's going to mean, whether that's a technology from acquiring, you know, one of those top for firms, or or someone's going to get broken apart or or something like that. But I think that's a that's a bullet prediction that we can we can see what it's gonna look like in ten ears. It's a bullet prediction. I can hold your feet to the fire for a decade there. Two are wrong about that, but that that one of the big four banks will not exist in their current form and the next decade that would be. That would be a that's yeah, you get credit for bull that prediction by saying somebody else will, will luge one of those top form maybe out. I mean, obviously you've seen a lot of these regional bank is out of that Cham. So let's that's my headge is that if that's not if that prediction doesn't work, then somebody's going to large one of the for, you know, out of out of fourth position or something. All right, well, I'M gonna keep my eye on this one. This will be interesting chat. Thanks so much for the conversation. I thank you. It really insightful. I appreciate your make of the time. Yeah, thank you so much. A Great Day. You too. Up Start Partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan port folios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does to up starts. Ai Landing Platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve of more applicants than traditional credit models. With fraud rates near zero. Upstarts all digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto lenning programs or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Upstart offers an into in solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile, with all digital underwriting, onboarding,...

...loan closing and servicing. It's all possible with upstart in your quarner. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting UPSTARTCOM Ford Banks. That's upstartcom forward banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player using apple podcast. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time, the views and opinions expressed by the host and guests on the leaders and lending podcast are their own and their participation in this podcast does not imply an endorsement of such views by their organization or themselves. The content provided is for informational purposes only and the discussion between the host and guests should not be taken as financial advice by companies or individuals.

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