Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 84 · 2 months ago

Policy and Practice to Expand Access to Credit


Technology is transforming the banking landscape, but it is cost prohibitive for smaller institutions and can leave out borrowers who need access to capital the most. Recognizing that credit funds opportunity, the movement for inclusive credit is growing thanks to the MoreThanFair initiative that believes technology and data science can make lending more inclusive, transparent and fair.

Our guests today have been at the forefront of the movement for more inclusive credit.

Nicole Elam, President and CEO of the National Bankers Association, and Nat Hoopes, VP, Head of Public Policy and Regulatory Affairs at Upstart, are both involved in the More Than Fair initiative. They discuss how leveraging technology partnerships to expand access to capital and credit is essential to opening up opportunities for lower income and minority communities.

Join us as Jeff, Nicole and Nat discuss:

  • Why automated lending and online banking are particularly challenging for Minority Deposit Institutions and how the National Bankers Association and Upstart can help
  • How policy changes can encourage fair lending and push reforms to include more data to determine who is creditworthy
  • If you can’t build it or buy it, then the only way to compete is to partner with Fintechs

You're listening to Leaders and Lending from Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week, here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, best practices around digital transformation, and more. Let's get into the show. Welcome to Leaders in Lending. I'm your host, Jeff Kellner. This week's episode features my conversation when Nicole Elam, the President and CEO of the National Bankers Association, and Not Hoops, the head of Government and regulatory Affairs at Upstart. We really dive into the NBA, their work with minority depository institutions and the role those institutions play in our in our current financial system, particularly the communities they serve. We also talk about how we can move beyond just fairness and how we think about lending, but to inclusivity and driving more inclusivity in our credit system, and how that led to the launch of the community known as More Than Fair, group of lenders, fin techs, consumer advocacy groups who are really advocating for moving our regulatory framework towards focus on not just fairness but inclusivity and expanding access and lowering the price of credit for the American consumers. There's a really interesting discussions, very lively discussion, lots of tidbits of wisdom. I really learned a lot from both of these guests, and I'm sure you will as well. So please enjoy this conversation with Nicole and that. Nicole and Nat, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. I really appreciate your making the time. Thank you for having us. It's great we're taking the Act on the road. Jeff, that's right. Well, Nicole, I wanted to start by just for the members of our audience who might not be as familiar with the National Bankers Association kind of who you guys are and what you do. Would love for you to give a little interest everybody has a little context on that organization. Well, great question. The National Bankers Association is a ninety five year old trade association that represents minority depository institutions are m d I s uh. These are banks that are predominantly owned and operated by people of color, and they sit in and serve predominantly minority communities. So it's no surprise then that because they're owned and operated by people of color, and they sit in and serve by pop communities that they tend to be significant providers of mortgages and small business loans and access to financial services in these communities. UM, just a little bit of history. These are banks that were born out of racism because black, brown, and immigrant communities could not go to mainstream financial institutions for their banking services. And the first m d I was actually Freedmen's Bank in the eighteen hundreds. Uh And so Association of of m d I s tell me a little bit about like what the organization at the NBA level, what do you guys focused on doing, and how do you support those institutions. So we focus on what I like to call the four piece policies, so advocating for policies that serve minority banks in the communities that they serve. The second is providing programming to support them. The third is pro follow raising, so that is just raising awareness about our member banks and the sector at large. And the fourth is partnerships. We've spent a lot of time over the last two to three years around partnerships, creating partnerships with the public, the private and the nonprofit sector to better capitalized, modernize, and strengthen our banks. So the four piece is what we spend all of our time with here at the National Bankers Association. I love it. You've got like an acronym for at the four piece. Yes, it helps you remember things. I I lovenemonics and numbers, and I think I tell my kids I like numbers and threes and never more than five. There you go, it's too much. And and I also think growing up in a in a church, a Baptist church, you know they like the preachers, like their uhnemonics, they like things that are memorable. Is everything has to start with the same letter? Yeah, four peace excellent. I had one question for you, which is, you know, I know all financial institutions are kind of going through the digital transformation and kind of how do we meet consumers in particular and small businesses in the ass that they're at now using the devices versus maybe the old branch centric...

...model. And I know MBI's tend to be smaller, uh than the larger, more mainstream traditional financial institutions, and I know that that can make make it more challenging in many ways to to to to bridge that digital divide to kind of get into that digital world. What are you seeing as the focus or how banks are tackling that challenge and that transition when the MBI, because I imagine it's a little different than what I might hear from a Chase or a Wells Fargo or City Bank. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head right. Technology is driving everything and it's really transforming the banking landscape, but it is very cost prohibitive, and so one of the challenges that small community banks when I think about my membership based the average asset size is about four seventy million dollars, So the smallest of the small banks, they have a lot of challenges when it comes to leveraging technology because it is it isn't very affordable. Right, going on to the three c's, it's cost prohibitive, they don't have the capacity, the internal capacity to really manage techno aology in that way. They don't have dedicated I T staff. And the third is core integration. Many of them are reliant on their core providers, and so if their cores have outdated legacy systems or it's hard to plug in new technology, it's just not even worth the hassle for them, and so how are they managing these challenges? You know, they're really trying to find good folks to partner with. They're not going to be able to build it or buy it fast enough, and so partnering with fin techs like upstart to do some of the things that they're unable to do is really the only way that they're going to be able to compete, because again, they're not going to be able to build it or buy it fast enough, so they're gonna have to create partnerships in the areas that are really the most challenging for them. And some of those areas are around P two P everybody wants to do peer to peer automated lending. And then the third is around online banking and just online onboarding people wanting to open up and apply for a loan on their on their phone. Those are the three areas that they're really doubling down and trying to find great partnerships like upstart. I love it, and now I promise we're gonna get you in the conversation here too, so I might jump over to you. You know, um Nicole was talking about, you know, being centered in and serving often underprivileged communities, um, the communities of color. And I know you know you were part of launching the More Than Fair initiative, which was really kind of trying, I think shift away. I think of it the conversation from one just around fairness and certain technical measures of how we think about fairness to one about inclusivity and how we actually make sure we're serving the communities that are most often left behind in the fratraditional Banchian service world. Can you tell me a little bit more about More than Fair, why it was founded in what the objectives or that aren't because I feel like they're alignment. I'd love to get a little more detail on that. Yeah, well, you know, Nicole was a charter member with the NBA of More Than Fair, and so you know, I think, Um, I'll just quickly back up and say, you know, the partnership with the NBA for Upstart is really about inclusive credit. So you know, as you know, Jeff, like, we tend to reach low and modern income communities at roughly twice the rate of a traditional bank personal loan program at Upstart, and you know, using a lot of alternative data for a reason. Right, We're not using it for fun. It's not it's not fun to process more data. It's because it really helps you find those borrowers that can repay who have been overlooked a lot. And so I think in our world and personal loans and auto loans, you know, Nicole mentioned mortgage credit, small business credit in general, the sort of the the other categories where Upstart has been strong and personal loans and auto loans have have not always been the province of some of these smaller community based institutions. And so it's really a natural partnership with with Upstart and n b A, you know, starting now probably a year and a half ago, and we have now three three NBA you know, minority depository institutions and roughly ten c d f i's total. I think, so there's a lot of partnership between Upstart and this kind of community that's growing. And more than Fair was really UH an initiative that was both private sector, so the upstarts in the National Bankers Association, the community lenders the world partnering with nonprofits to say, hey, look we really need faster progress on on racial equity when it comes to lending, on inclusive ending on access...

...to credit. We just gotta we gotta move faster as a society, and the only way to do that is to kind of put everybody at the table. If if government's not at the table, or the nonprofit the civil rights groups and the consumer protection groups are not at the table, or or private sector is not at the table, then you're gonna be missing a really important viewpoint. So, um, that's what More than Fair is all about. We launched the last you know, in September. We have uh, you know, headed towards a couple of dozen members um and just a great, a great community dialogue around how to how to move the policy framework forward and and the technology forward to make this kind of lending more possible, make it lending more possible. When you think about the policy framework, are there elements of that you feel like could be moved forward faster or that are you know, somewhat more problematic in terms of making progress on racial equity and inclusion in terms of lending than others. It's I think they're two big areas and then g a three and NAT's got two, so we're gonna have to get down to one. I don't have I don't have a pneumonic device that I could think of. But but there's two big ones. So the first one I would say is, uh, kind of in the Community Reinvestment Act, just really rewarding banks that are that are have products that are responsive to low and modern income communities. You know, a lot of c RRA has been you know, funding a real estate development project or some mortgage or some small business credit. But really a lot of these communities need an affordable personal loan, they need affordable auto loans, they need to avoid payday loans, they need you know, sub thirty responsible credit, and so a lot of the banks have kind of never really participated. So we're we're urging that you know, more rewards for banks that really serve the needs of these communities. And then so that's Community Reinvestment Act reform. And then I think the other big area is in supervision. Just when you think about fair lending law, there's a lot of questions about algorithms and fairness of algorithms. The problem is the existing algorithms and the existing lending are deeply unfair with with credit scores and so forth. And so the way fair lending laws would work is that supervisors should be asking the lenders that use these traditional systems, Hey have you have you looked at the possibility of being more inclusive by using an upstart you know model, or or you know they were not the only one in the blocks s model. Whoever, like somebody who's trying to bring more data better you know, math to this problem of credit to find more bars, they should really be getting those kind of questions. And I think instead, you see the sort of the scrutiny in the white hot spotlight is generally always government kind of pointed at something new, and so I think those are the two areas I would say cr A reform and and supervision focused on on some of these new tools, and and making sure that the existing system is um is forced to kind of move a little bit faster. I like it. We got four three twil and we have to get down to one here at the end. You know now that you guys were a founding charter member of the More Than Fair Coalition, talking a little about why that was important to you guys to get involved. I don't know if it fits into one of your four piece maybe partnership or policies, know, kind of kind of in the middle of the two. But you know what was it about the you know what's going on in that you thought it was important to be involved? Well, I think not really hit on it. It's about the who's at the table and what the focus is. The fact that you've got government, you've got civil rights organizations, you've got lenders, you've got technology folks, consumer advocates there, You've got the right people at the right table. And then what they're focused on is is this idea of inclusivity right? And how can we leverage data and how can we leverage technology to expand access to capital and credit and to become more inclusive. So I think the who and the what made it a no brainer for us. Mhm oh, and you guys keep talking too. This is one of these things I always have to remind people that, like a credit system can work for financial institutions in terms of achieving certain loss rates while really not working for consumers or society in terms of making credit as accessible as it is, it could and should be a similar loss rates, So an inaccurate system doesn't necessarily show up an unstable bank to our excessive losses that...

...shows up in the consumers who often are not served despite being credit worthy if looked at in the right way, and are therefore left out of the the opportunities that are often only unlocked by access to credit, things like a car to get to a job, or the education you need to improve your skills, or those things that are really how really, ultimately credit is how we we fund opportunity and taking advantage those opportunities in our society. Yeah, well, I mean it's kind of a no brainer when you think, I mean, all of us, we we live with credit scores every day. Credit scores are an important part of the system, but one three digit number sort of being supposing to predict whether you can repay a five thousand dollar loan or a five thousand dollar mortgage or just there's such different products. And so this one three digit score that kind of takes all this data and tries to sort of pump out one predictive number is is not really the way that we all should be looking at credit and thinking about credit. And so, you know, the stat that really grabbed my attention, and you know, we're not waking up every day just really motivated to work on this issue. Set four fifths the black Barrows have a credit score under seven hundred. I mean, you know, when most banks are cutting off at seven d, they're just they're just writing huge potential applicant you know, you know, minority communities out of their applicant pool. And so you know, not everybody is is credit worthy. Not everybody can get approved for for you know, unsecured personal loans of ten thollars over the internet. But but the people that can most benefit from these products often fall in that spectrum where they might not even be given a shot. And so I think fundamentally this idea of using more data, better you know, AI tools to give those people a chance to apply. And you know, some of what Jeff as you know, are small dollar products seeing a lot of success because people who can't qualify for eight thousand dollars if that's what they think they need, they're really finding that they could use to grant right they and and that that they will repay those loans, you know. And so some of it is just having having something that's out there that meets people where they are what they need. And I think kind of to to build off of that, the reason why minority banks are able to say yes more than mainstream financial institutions when they're saying no, has a lot to do with relationships, because we're not just relying on credit scores. We've got the relationships. So we're looking at other data points because we know that you're credit worthy when the data points says that you're not credit worthy or you're risky. And so the problem is have you scaled that? And technology allows you to scale what a lot of these banks have been doing on a relationship basis or one on one basis saying yes to loans when others are saying no. Yeah, I also get asked aout alternative data, and people involve in this lens that you're finding other ways to say no. And I just think that's fundamentally you're finding other ways to say yes, Like maybe you know a great credit score, but there's something else I can see about you, you know that. I think that's the thing people miss is it's really like there are lots of ways you can have demonstrate a credit worthiness. I mean, for many that are younger to the credit system, just like you've never had a loan, I've never had a lot that should be a sign of good financial for like I never took out a credit card. I paid my rent. Uh, you know, I I pay in the debit card and now I don't have credits. I've never had credit, and like that should be a strong sign. But things like paying your cell phone bill and paying your rent and does not go up on credit files and so finding other ways to look through it and go, hey, this person has demonstrated financials having us have demonstrated responsibility and their financial lives. We should be giving them credit for that. I think it's kind of it's very different than an think how people have to go. You want to use this variable to cut off people that are going to be risking. We want to take the people who don't have other ways to show their credit where they doesn't find ways to see it in their history, which can be done through relationships. To your point to call historically um or, there's lots of ways data and technology can scale that set because ultimately relationships don't don't scale that well, no, they don't. They don't. You have to be high tech in high tech at the same time. Yeah, you're full of like a little bit call I love it. Yeah. And and Jeff, you know another company in more than fair coalition a Suzu that does the rent reporting work. And that's just like an example where you know, five to ten years ago the idea of positive rental reformance and now all of a sudden they're you know, integrating with Fannie Mae and...

Freddie mac right. So the world is changing, and it's changing quickly, and and the sort of I think the idea of more than Fair is if the world's gonna be changing quickly, we should have the right people at the table to just make sure that we're all in line with Hey, here's what's happening, here's where this helps, here's where this could create risk. And we're having a conversation with one another rather than kind of talking past each other. So I think it's it's really promising. And we have our next event coming up in another month here. So now I'm asking is its organizations are interested in getting involved in what the people listening. So that sounds really interesting. I want to know more or how do I get involved? Where do they go? What do they do? Yeah, so more than fair dot com first they take a poke through all the data. It really really really lays out the some of the disparity in the existing credit system, the opportunity for AI to save American consumers. I think the number we came up with, Jeff a hundred billion dollars annually in sort of excess you know, rents extracted through inaccurate models, if that makes sense. So there's this, there's this huge opportunity to make the world better that way, you can see some of the other members involved. Obviously, this is a community and so you know, as a community, it's not necessarily open to those actors who might not be known for treating consumers well or trying to get people the lowest price. So it's definitely you know, intended to be you know, a community people who are intentional about about you know, increasing access to affordable credit. That means you know, in general in our world subti percent Military Lending Act compliant credit UH and and doing so in the small business space with responsible you know practices around disclosure and so forth. So that's the industry side. And then obviously nonprofits that are trying to work in these communities every day are always welcome at the table. We need more of those, more voices who have who have worked on these different issues. They're not I want to ask you, um, you know, I know I've read a lot about investments from you know, various institutions, often large banks into the minority depository institution world, particularly over the last couple of years. I know, the Biden Harris administration lean not the eight billion dollar investment to cb F I s if you're not mbies, but are you know, often serving lower communities, um, which which is helpful. What else do you think we should be doing to help support the institutions that are most directly serving these communities. Yeah, So there's a lot of conversation around the capital that's coming in, and a lot of that capital has been focused on lending. Right, So if we give these community lenders more capital, what are they gonna do? They're gonna push it out and lend it to the community at a time that they've been hit hard by the pandemic, and so in order to keep the economy going, let's let's let's get them a lending But I think the challenges there's been so much focus on lending capital and not enough around how do you help them build their infrastructure? Right, I've got all this capital and now I need to push out huge amounts of it at scale, And the only way that I'm going to be able to do that is to update my infrastructure and to update my technology. And so I think that there's a lot to be said and done around how can we create partnerships to help them better build their infrastructure and to help them better increase their technogy capabilities. That's so true when I mean, I came from the technology space into the lenning space and the and the most sure way to destroy value is to give people a lot of money and ask them to lend it without the infrastructure. Because growing the lending business is exceptionally easy. Lots of people will line up to take the money. It's knowing properly who can pay it back. And and you know that's both for the institution but also for the people. I mean, I always it's easy to forget that when you make a loan that doesn't repay, you don't just lose your money, but that person, that community, that business is ultimately damaged by you know, having a big credit on terms that they couldn't reasonably afford. In the end, they end up damaging their credit and their future opportunities because of that. So, um, that's that's certainly true. The infrastructure to do it right is nothing very investment and the other thing is deposits. So Nicole I think you know, Jeff, Jeff was doing some really uh interesting traveling this summer, but you know, we were we were together in the White House Economic Opportunity Coalition. That effort where really uh kind of brought together a lot of these different you know, both technology panies and the...

...administration and a lot of these larger banks, and and Nicole's members to really say, Okay, well, now that the equity investment has been made, what's next. And so it's like all about the deposits. Yeah, deposits, right, So talk about deposits. What what are the deposits gonna do? Yeah, So when you think about it, for every dollar of capital or equity that's invested, you need about nine eight nine dollars of deposits to get to that ten dollars. And so if they get a billion dollars in capital, they need eight or nine billion dollars in deposits so that they're able to do that lending and do the work in the community. And so now there's a huge focus on deposits. And it's really interesting because if you think about three years ago, you know, if they're the murder of George Floyd. You saw a lot of corporation saying how can we help, Oh, we want to make deposits, and a lot of the m d as were saying, wait, no, I don't have the capital to take on your deposit. That's actually a liability. I'm gonna have to pay for your deposit because you can take it out at any time. Now the tide has shifted. Right now, they've got capital, and now we're saying, yes, bring these deposits, give these deposits to our member banks, and keep the deposits there. Right, So not a short term deposit, and so deposits is certainly something that No, We've got a lot of time and energy that we're focused on. We're excited that the Equitable Opportunity Coalition members made a billion dollar commitment and deposits to m d e s. But we need more, right if you think about that that one to eight nine ratio, we need more deposits. So if there's a billion dollars. When I think about Black banks in particular, because they've experienced the most growth and asset size over the last two to three two to three years, they've grown by a billion dollars, right, they need eight or nine billion dollars in deposits to be able to properly capitalize. Yeah, it's always the part of the lenning for those who are not deeply in it that you don't kind of I mean a that cash is a liability. That's wrong. It's a liability to me. But being it like, yeah, to use your equity properly, you need you know, I think it's ten x your equity and deposits to be able to really hit your deposit in your lending ratios. And so that's uh, all right. So those of you who have deposits that you need some more new home for him. Nicole has got some nbis that would be happy to take them. And absolutely this has been a great discussion. I've got three questions. I typically end uh this this interview with for all my guests, but now you've already been on and answered them. So I'm gonna cut you out of this part and just called more. I mean, I didn't want to say Nicoles marching. We calls more interesting in certain way. So we're gonna go with the coal. Hopefullly I live up to this high bar. We got the four pis the three CS, not to unlettered UM bullet points of focus, and but I always love these. I think they're they're interesting perspectives, Nicole. My three final questions for you can of like number one, what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gotten? Be flexible? Um, which is really difficult for me as a type A personality. I planned my journey from A to Z and nothing went as planned. But leaning into all of these great opportunities has really led me to where I am today. So be flexible with with the various opportunities that are coming your way. Be intentional as they're coming, but but be flexible. Don't be so wetted that you miss great things right in front of you. I love that, I think. Yeah, I mean there's the old PAVN quote, no battle plan survives first contact with the end. But also kind of like the uh you know, it's the it's the unexpected things that often leads you on the most exciting places, and being open to that opportunity is opposed to so focused on I think you thought was supposed to be next. Uh. Yeah, that's a great piece of advice. I love that. Would be flexible. So what's the best piece of advice you either have gotten or have given. Since you work with a lot of financial institutions about being in the consumer lending space generally, I think what has surprised me is how big of a difference technology actually makes. And we really saw that at scale during when P p P was happening. My banks that had technology were able to push out more PP loans and better serve their customer base. And I think while we knew that, seeing the data really blew my mind and how important data are, how...

...important technology is to really serving your customer base, and it's changing right. So so many people think about it from a lending perspective, but it's really also about a customer experience and engagement perspective. Before you even get to lending. They need to have a great experience, you need to have great engagement, and technology is center to all of that. I love that, and I love getting and I made the equip but you made the comment about high tech and high touch earlier, and I think it's it's so true because scale comes through technology and kind of the scalability of that. But in those moments I find in my life, at least in those moments where I want to talk to a person get out of the way, like so often it's like fifteen layers on a phone tree and wait, we'll call you back in thirty minutes. And uh. It's interesting because there's moments when I want to and then on the flip side, something like I just want to do this thing my phone, like I'll please call us. I don't want to call you and sit through. I just want to click the button. I just want to kick the button. I just want to have the chat. I just want to and I don't want to click the button multiple time times. I want to click at one time. So the finding that balance is so interesting. But the PPP also is a great example because that was, I mean, I think by many an underappreciated intervention into the economy that was incredibly effective in terms of what it actually supported, um but be how it laid bare the ability of some institutions to actually deploy the capital quickly, and others were unable because of their technology infrastructure, to really push that that capital out in the communities as fastly as fast as they might have liked, or to support as many applications as they might have liked. Because of the lack of technology infrastructure, and before you could even get to deploy in the capital, you need a technology to plug into the system. Because many of the smaller banks, because they didn't have the technology to plug into the system and get that they couldn't. By the time they did it, the system was shut down, it was finished, it was done, it was over. So even getting access to it was difficult if you didn't have technology. Under appreciation of of the utilization of technology, I like it. Last last question, what is one bold prediction for the future? Technology is not going to solve everything? Um, a technology is not going to solve everything. And the reason why I'm thinking about this right now thinking mortgage. Mortgage is a space, it's a scale game, and mortgage was an area that my banks were creating partnerships with FinTechs to do more mortgages. But because of the economy right now, like interest rates are such that I don't care how much I want to help close the wealth gap and increase home ownership, you just can't. It's gonna be difficult to do with appraisal gaps and the economy. And so I think it really goes to show that technology isn't the end all be all, And there are some things that you really have to just address other issues, Right, what is going on with appraisal gaps? So what is going on with some of these other things. So it's an opportunity to fix some of these other structural and policy issues because technology is not the end all be all. Interesting. I like that your last two pieces are like technology critical for scale and technology though is not the end all be all. I don't know if there's tension to those, but I think there's a lot of wisdom in the fact that it's not. It's not a simple answer, right, It's like a little bit of both in the in the way is them to know with the old Irish pair like God, grant me the courage in the serenity and the wisdom to know the difference like when is it the right what is it the wrong tool? And how to apply the right tool in the right place. That's very interesting advice. Well, give me the courage to do it and the wisdom to know when to do it or not right the um, Yeah, I think that's a really interesting two pieces of advice call for those who are interested in getting involved, are making a deposit into an md I and that's a member of the National Banker Association. Where can they find out more about your organization? National Bankers dot org. You can find our email or Twitter are linked in all of our good stuff. You can find at national Bankers dot org, National Bankers dot org and more than fair dot com. I guess people know how to find you, guys and your organizations if they like to learn more. Thank you so much for joining us, as we're really fascinating conversation and quite lively, so I appreciate your time. Thank you for having me Jeff. Up Start partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a durn all digital lending experience.

As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. Up Starts AI lending platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models. With fraud rates near zero, up starts All digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto learning programs, or you're just getting started, Upstart can help. Upstart offers an end to end solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile with all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing, and servicing. It's all possible with Upstart in your corner. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process, and growing your business by visiting upstart dot com slash four dash banks. That's upstart dot com slash forward dash banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from Upstart, make sure you never missed an episode. Subscribe to Leaders and Lending in your favorite podcast player using Apple Podcasts. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening until next time.

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