Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode · 1 year ago

Product-Agnostic Lending: Focusing on What the Customer Needs


The old paradigm in banking involved developing a product and turning to life-stage marketing to sell that product to customers.

But that paradigm is evolving. Financial Institutions are identifying customer needs and providing solutions regardless of what the product is, rather than hawking a product

In this episode, Ted Krus, Director o f Consumer and Indirect Lending at Flagstar Bank explains the strategy behind taking a product-agnostic approach to product development and customer interaction.

We discuss:

- Why a product-agnostic approach makes sense

- How data is a crucial piece for meeting customer needs

- Focusing on the end-to-end customer experience

- Managing risk and governance groups during the process

Resources mentioned during the podcast:

- “What’s a Digital Lending Ecosystem and Why Should Banks Care?” by Alex Johnson

To hear more from Leaders in Lending, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Leaders in Lending on your favorite podcast player.

People always think of lending is like paper and money, but it's really just data right. All it is is taking data, treating data and making good decisions on what you have in front of you. You're listening to leaders and lending from upstart a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation. In more let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders in lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's conversation is with Ted crews, the SVP and director of consumer finance at Flagstar Bank. This conversation is pretty wide ranging. Ted and I talked about his thoughts around building a product agnostic experience and really beginning with the consumers needs and desires and not so much leading with product, which I think has been very typical thing in the world of consumer finance. We talked about digital transformation and Ted's belief that digital transformation needs to really start with the process and not the kind of front end or user experience, user design, but really how do you transform a process, which is sort of an emerging theme of my conversations, and also the critical nature of building the right data layer to enable the right processes to really deliver a superior experience where you can take advantage of the information you already know about a customer in terms of building the best experience for them when they come back for more information or new products. And finally, Ted has one of the most interesting and measurable bold predictions. If you stick around the end of the conversation, that's a pretty fun one to listen to. So enjoy the conversation, ted, thanks for joining us today. I appreciate your joining the podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm it's exciting. Now I've got listeners who've actually heard the podcast before they come, so that's like a new thing as we go, but you know a little bit more what to expect, so you get a little bit more a headstart than the first sets of guests. Absolutely really great insights and so I really enjoy the podcast under well, that's the bar for today to then. So a great insight. You got to provide a few. I wanted to start the conversation. We were talking in advance and you use this phrase product agnostic, that I thought was really interesting about how you think about interacting with consumers and product development. Help me understand what you mean by being more product agnostic. Yeah, so, you know, when we are looking at our customer set, we want to provide them solutions that are for what they need in their life. What's happening and it shouldn't really matter the product right today, in banking and lending, right, it's very much few. You need a home equity like tap that you already got your first mortgage. Oh, you just need this to buy, you know, a car. WHO's your car loan? Right, it's very specific to that product and we're trying to give them that product. We're trying to build and what we are building is to sit back and say we don't we're going to build the product so that it doesn't really matter which one you choose. What we're really focused on is that the customer gets what they want. Right, and there's a really good a fintech takes news letter from Alex Johnson over at cornerstone advisors, and it hit home for me what he...

...was folks on there. Right, it's not life stage marketing, which kind of happens a lot like, oh it's a home equity, but you could use it for all these things. It's really life stage products right identify the need. We should really be product agnostic. You know, consumers don't want the products, they want the thing. They want the money or the lending or the bank account for, you know, the Nice place to live, their ability to buy stuff, ability to store money. You know, maybe getting it can't quite afford, you know, not just have. Oh, I need a home equity. They don't even know about a lot of the Times. So that's where we're really focused on here at the bank, and especially on the lending side. It's a bit like the old phrase nobody wants a quarter inch drill that there's one a quarter inch hole. That's right in it's we're always trying to sell them. There's my old sales training, I guess, kicking in. Yeah, but if it feels like it goes a step farther than that, because a lot of times I don't even know that they want the whole. They know they want piece of furniture whatever. The hole is a part of building. How do you think about that playing itself out in terms of the way you interact with customers, the way you train staff, the way you build digital experiences. I think so much of our technology infrastructure in our processes are built around pick the product and then I know what to do. They go to the website for any bank and it's like loans, categories of loans. It's a very product oriented so I get the product atnost but how do you like really implement, like on a website or in a branch, experience what that means in terms of how you actually lead the conversation and figure out, you know, where that consumer needs to go? Well, first off it's you got to have that data up front, as much as you can write. Obviously a new customer or you might not, but for your existing customers you already have a wealth of information that you've just got to pull together to then say I already know these things about you and and even take a step further. We're trying to get to is hay customer, client coming to the bank, opt in, let us use you, let us use your data and append that with other third party data to really get full insights. And so when you're coming into the website or you're coming to the bank, we already have the knowledge about you and and pretty much what your needs are. Right and again it's product diagnostic. You come in and we know pretty much with a couple of questions, what your need is and we can find that solution right away, really quickly. And to your point, the funnel shouldn't be, okay, I need a home equity or personal loan and you kind of go through this process. The process has to be part of that whole experience. To right, it has to be. You know, we talked about digital transformation and a lot of these companies they really focus on that customer experience. But to me it's lacking is that whole process through is the customer experience to write. How you're getting the loan? Are you leveraging that data to not have to collect things, to not have to ask more questions, and are you doing as fast as possible? And it doesn't matter the product right, lending. This lending, you know, people always think of lending is like paper and money, but it's really just data. Right, all it is is taking data, trading data and...

...making good decisions on what you have in front of you. Lending is just that. I'm going to I'm going to use that in the future for sure, and it's a that's a nice phrase. Yeah, I will say. Well, I'm going to go back to think a little bit more, like is that mean you're are you putting like chat interfaces or how do you envision that kind of helping the consumer find their way from a need to a product really really taking place? I can imagine it in a branch with employees who are getting smarter about like not saying Hey, what, what product are you here for, like what what can I help you get today, but kind of like what what are you trying to do right by the wealth advisors are probably in the space, or financial advisors, and like Hey, when do you want to retire and what are your spending goals for retirement, and here's how much you need and here's the you got an IRA or K or they're they're used to kind of not starting with the product and maybe starting with like Hey, what what is it you want to get to and how do we get there? Is a similar journey you're thinking about on the lending side that you hey, I'm looking to build a pool, I'm look into whatever, and is that how you've envisioned that, both in a technology enabled sense and in a people powered sense. Yeah, exactly. I think that that's definitely part of it. But to have the data and that full insight on the customer is really powerful. To have those conversations right you're just more informed. You're not asking like, well, how much money do you need? What do you what can you afford? You kind of have it up front. So so, based on what you know about them, it really you can tailor that solution and you know solution selling to that customer, whether they're coming through the branch, a digital channel, on the phone. You know, you're kind of again agnostic to how they come into your bit bank or your minding institution, and you really focused on how do I fill that need that the customer wants, because once they feel that and they know that, they're going to come back for the next thing they need and the next thing right, and it's not going to feel like I'm pushing you on a mortgage or pushing you on a on secure loan because you just you don't need that much money and it's quicker. Right. It's really got to be tailored to what you know about them and then focused on providing that product no matter what it is and and if you build it right, then it won't matter. You said the word data a few times and I'm curious how you think about investing in data infrastructure, because I feel like one of the one of the things I hear from a lot of financial institutions is that their data just mean not only is their consumer experience siload and products, but their systems and data are often similarly siload within products that support different systems. But then don't give that three hundred and sixty view. Not Everybody has access to every system. I got to go for plates kind of like my phone call. I call into the bank like, Oh, you want talk about this product, we're going to transfer you to the person. What they really mean? It's a person who can access the system that actually understand what the heck you're talking about, because I can't see it. How do you think about the data infrastructure or the way you go about breaking the mold of a kind of products? I load data environments that you're making that three hundred and sixty view of a consumer available to your bankers in real time? Yeah, it's it's definitely a challenge.

It's one that that, you know, we are fighting through every day. Right. It's definitely a lot of these core systems are very old. Some of them just don't have that data flow and that data connectivity that you need. Right. So you really have to kind of build a centralized piece to feed those in and then to pend that with other third party data, write data you might not have on the customer, but when you think of hey, we're we're big mortgage chap, we have all this mortgage data, we have all the data about, you know, the banking accounts, the business banking accounts, the commercial loans, like, it comes to a point where it's consumer, commercial mortgage. Right, you shouldn't even the channel. Is kind of you have to start at the base level of not even thinking about the channel. It's really like everything, the product process that you have in the products have to be built on that data foundation and it's hard, it's tough work and the people that are going to get there are really going to succeed. I think. Yeah, I tend to agree to I mean, you kind of describe that as a pulling out into an independent data layer, almost because I'm it does seem like if I take all the systems I have and do a point to point connection for everyone. Like that's an inby end matrix. It seems to get very large in terms of connection points, very mustability. So you see that it's kind of like a separate layer that runs across systems where you're actually trying to interchange and make data available. Or how do you actually like facilitate that kind a capability? It feels like it's very powerful and, to be frank, not something I see, at least from like the consumer experience. I don't see many people delivering on that particularly well across the institution. So I'm curious your thoughts on how you actually like execute that vision. Yeah, like I said, it it's tough, but you have to kind of start at the base and almost start from scratch, from whatever, pull all those data sources together and then have one source of truth across the entire organization, no matter what it is, and have that set of standards and foundation that any of those systems can plug into, whether it's your crm, you know, your front'm banking core, you're servicing system, and they can all see that information on the customer and build those profiles and start really have that base customer level. Yeah, that that universal source of truth is it Toff, but if you get they're like that's the that's the ticket for sure. And then the other part I want to I want to delve into a little bit, as you talked about, you know, digital transformation, starting with process it feels like that data layer is foundational to making that happen. But then you've actually got to think about how do we build the right set of processes on top of these layers of data. So I'm curious how you think about that in a cross product way. You trying to be product agnostic or you you think about like one solution? Do you think about independent ways of leveraging it for different products? You like, how do you go about but then actually designing processes to leverage that data and that capability in intelligent ways? And then I'm a follow on question, so you can start thinking about it just kind of like how do you bring the institution along? So I feel like one of the hardest things to change in a...

...financial institution are the processes and procedures and policies that have been your controls. And many of the things that you can automate now are not automate because a policy says you're going to do the non automated thing. So how do you think about building the right processes from scratch and then how do you think about bringing the institution on board with, you know, allowing you to innovate in the process area where? Maybe that's how we think of risk controls and you know, I want to say death by committee. There can be a lot of committees that have some perspective on, you know, not asking for a w two for a kind of loan. As a simple example, you go out, we got the bank statements, we don't need a w too. We go that. We've always asked for three years of W two. Thinking well, you like what? How do you resolve that, you know, across the institution and get you know, get support for driving towards new direction? Try. It's a big two part question. I Apologize. Yeah, no, that's the great questions. So obviously model governments is pieces of it. You have to have the right models to do that. Predictability around the risk in the risk profile and the customers and all that, that's kind of separate, right. But I always view digital transformation it. People always tend to start out out with the customer experience, right, but the back end and the way to get them whatever that product or service is to me as the main part of the experience. Right, that's where the most person is is, Oh, I have to give you this piece of information or have to sign this document or give you this discloater, and and to really take the data and remove those pieces of that part like Hey, I've already got this piece, I've already got your income, I see how much you spend, I know your payments. Right, it's all you know. I think we all know right that underwriting now is is cashflownder writing. It's here. That's all we're doing. We're not looking in the past. We're looking at the now, kind of trending of what we think the future is going to be for that customer and then being able to give them that product that we you know, product or service that we saw right, it right in the get go. So, yeah, that's interesting. Your description reminds me of whenever I talk to our design team here upstart and they get very upset if you call them like Ui designers, because in their mind Ui is like the color of the button, the rounding of the corner, and not not that they don't do that and appreciate the esthetics, but the difference between that and what they call Ux, which is, to your point, the like what questions am I asking and when am I asking them and why? And how do I not ask those questions when I like? That's a different, deeper thing and I do think too many digital transformations are focused on the Ui've got a website that takes the takes the APP and then I go back to my old process, you know, and I'm coming to the branch or just ask you for the same twenty five documents I used to sign here right. Yeah, I did tell the story. I had a bank that comment and say hey, we got it. We did a digital autolonas. Oh, that's awesome. How did you do it? They do. They all closed in branch with the what Sig. You and I have just different definitions of digital. Right like that. That's not a did just alone to me if you got to come in branch. And and so I think there is a focus off and on the you know, the first page of the experience, the in the kind of quality of the look and feel of the front end versus...

...the quality of the overall, in the simplicity of the overall end to end, for the consumer, which, to your point, I think is is much more powerful you. There's much more benefit to that. Optimizing the whole process and just the look and feel totally. Do you have? Are there any processes you're proud of that you guys have kind of like undergone renovation said Hey, this is one where we actually a will to take out a bunch of steps, a bunch of friction. Is that more directional for you? Are there a few examples of wins you have that you you could highlight? Yeah, I think you know, coming out of the pandemic, right, a lot of the digital signing capabilities that really change the game for us. I think where we weren't as driving maybe the customers to that piece first and just kind of allow them to pick and choose. And that's totally their choice. But that's really the the what I think is the real of friction piece. It's like all you went through all of this and now you got to sign all these documents, right. So we really put in place ways to make it really quick, like sign these, you know, five spots or spots and we're good to go. Right. We can kind of finish that later and and go on with the process. And Fund your loan. So I'm pretty proud about that. I think to your to your piece about how do you bring the organization along and how do you kind of bring risk in your other partners? You know, we have to bring the regulators and our risk partners along. A lot of that is showing them the data. I think a perfect example, you know, upstart on secure lending right. A lot of people deem that risky like Oh, you know, we've boughten, we've bought portfolios, we have organic originations and you know, you kind of think of what's a catastrophic type event where you know you could have mass losses. What we had it right, we had it with the pandemic and it didn't happen. And so to me, you take that knowledge and go back and say see, like, look at in these markets and these things that we did and the way we underwrote, using AI, using all this extra data, actually served as well because we focused on the customer and that risk situation independently and didn't necessarily like look at it as overall book. Where are the you know pieces in there? And so I think that's really helped the industry kind of see that that there weren't these, you know, fifty percent, forty percent losses in the book when people are working. So, yeah, when? Yeah, it was a pretty, pretty disruptive moment. Yeah, I think so too. We all went through. Do you see that as like an ongoing it feels like that the dialog you're discussing as a not a one time, hey, we're going to change everything here. It's a ongoing, iterate and learn kind of process. It particularly and engaging with your risk and governant governance groups inside the institution. You talking about how you how you manage that and bring them along in the journeys. I think that's such a core part of this and I guess there's a Persuadi like we're in a digital transformations, like we flip the switch and then we're done. So we had to get everybody on board on day one and it feels like what you're describing is a more long term, iterative, hey, we're going to go and try something here and we're going to learn and we're going to show and we're going to get comfort and we're going to come back and maybe try something...

...else somewhere else. So I'd love for you to kind of talk a little about how you think about managing those relationships on ongoing basis and getting people from point a to point B in terms of looking at new ways of doing things. Yeah, you got to bring those partners in up front and even the regulators. I mean you guys know you did that and Showman, you're launching your product right, always having those ongoing conversations. But yeah, you kind of have to start out small, like let's pick this piece of the business or, you know, kind of this lending part or this, you know, this savings account, and let's see how that works and let's analyze the data and go through that. You can also look at other third parties. Are we bought portfolios to get comfortable with certain asset classes, and that's all data. You're looking at it, you're slicing, you're dicing it, and you can get people comfortable from that perspective to say hey, look at their process. They use AI and their underwriting, they have, you know, digital straight through processing and you know, look at what we see in the book and how it's performing. And I think that power in the performance, even if it's not yours and it's maybe an asset you own, really helps get people there. You know, unsecured lending at the bank is pretty new. We got it through one of our acquisitions. We had a portfolio and then we ended up buying a couple more portfolios just to get a better understanding, because it's not to say our process and our risk controls are the best. Let's kind of see how others do it, even though we kind of getting that income and getting the asset to kind of develop how we're going to have these loans perform and process. So interesting. Yeah, the the regulators are an interesting topic as well. We don't have to delve into those today. Yeah, that's free. That's a whole different I want. I know it's one of those areas to where I find that most people are go out. It's not my area. I don't want to talk too much because that's kind of a tightly managed relationship. You mentioned ai and I had an earlier conversation today about cryptocurrency. I'm curious if there are technologies you're particularly excited about. I just those are two that come to my mind when I go what's what's everybody talking about is the future of whatever. What are things that you're particularly excited about in terms of their possible impact on the the consumer lending space and the next you know, not not the next just one year, but the next five or ten years in terms of having very large impacts. I think the blockchain absolutely and specifically they're smart contracts, and imagine that you can be using smart contracts for lending that are dynamic and use that part of that process and you just you you have that risk taken out of the the whole lending ecosystem. I think is a huge deal for lenders and it's not easy to get there, but the technology is there and I think that's going to be really, really great to have in the future. Or are you guys doing anything? And Smart Contract certainly an area where I feel feel like, you know, we're in one of the two sexy things in ai and I understand that really well, and then I go to blockchain and I go I feel like my level of understanding is a four out of ten and I need...

...to be more of an eight out of ten. So it's not my area of expertise. From Piers, are you like live in production exploring? Are there particular kinds of loans you think are going to be, you know, powered by blockchain or enabled by smart contracts sooner rather than later. Just kind of where you where you see that going, because it's not an area where I feel particularly well informed, at least as I guess why I was having conversations earlier today on blockchain on somebody help me get smarter. Yeah, so for us it's more conceptual. Right now, it's a doing, doing some research right, but I think in a real estate secure type lending product it really makes the most sense to have that. You know, in the unsecured it's pretty straightforward, but there's definitely a use case there. But yeah, I think once we're when you look at the really the real estate and all the specific pieces of that and the colateral pieces, to have that in the in the blockchain on smart contract is going to be really powerful. All right, so you provided a new insight. So I know we talked about blockchain and real estate lending before. So bar cleared for the days a new, innovative and interesting I appreciate it. Is there be anything you've done recently the where you've been surprised by what was turned out, like any kind of projects or things where you want Huh, I didn't. I didn't go the way we thought and we learned something interesting from that. Yeah, actually, so we just launched a can digital application for consumer lending. Nothing fancy, kind of out of the box thing as it we're kind of looking at our digital journey. It's it was more for me to kind of gather data, like, horror, customers going to react. But one thing we did is linked into the online banking. We got so many more applications than I expected from that and there was no no marketing, no nothing. It literally is just going to dropdown, apply here for for a consumer loan on the mobile, out on the APP or when you're logging into your online banking. Really okay, and it's only been a few weeks and just the amount of volume that's come through that channel is pretty surprising. That people just self serving like Oh hey, yeah, I do need this personal loan or whatever. Right. It's not the ideal situation because I want it to be product agnostic, but at least that digital front and it was a really surprised that our customer base did that and took the initiative to just apply through there without any without any push, not any prompting or yeah, that is interesting. People just kind of take it upon themselves. I do the theme that there's been any of my recent conversations on this front is the shift of more conversations to advisory versus administrative and processing and nature, and then the willingness of post that kind of decision or conversation, for the consumer to self serve the process part right. We've usually hand held the process and assume they came in with the advice or knowledge of what they wanted. And I'm kind of hearing the INVERSES. We want to help people figure out what they need and then they're very happy to go home and pick up their phone and like fill out. They don't need me sitting there watching them put their neck. I've definitely been there put fulling your name in the form, going on watching me do I don't need to be observed. So I think that's kind of a shift of the priorities.

That's interesting. It kind of matches your unexpected levels of adoption of self service. People are people are happy to do that once I know what it is are looking for and if you can help them find that, then I think it's kind of the best of both worlds. Yeah, that's exactly right, and we empower our bankers that are in the branches to have those conversations and then just email a link, like we don't have to go through all that piece like that's now we know and we know that you want a home. I could alone. You can go at any time, at your leisure and go ahead and apply right, and that's part you. That's taken them out of those administrative tasks that they're sitting there having to do, plug it all in and giving the customer of the choice to say, Hey, I can go do it later, but at least now I know what I want, I know the fas, I know the the rates or you know. I know how it's all structured. So what feedback? I've heard some hesitants to this idea of like I came into the branch, I figured out what I wanted, a conversation. Now I'm being sent out to finish my application on a phone, on a link on my personal device, versus the need that I hear from some institutions like no, once that person's in branch and they've expressed an interest in the product, I gotta like, I got to finish that here. If you had any feedback or results in that concept, like sending a link and allowing them to complete the process on their own, from the consumers from the bankers, because it makes a lot of sense to me. But at the same time I definitely hear some hesitancy around, you know, stuff slipping out, slipping through the cracks, because they're either walking out of the branch or you're not having the bank or finish the process. You're given them a link and they're finishing on their own personal phone in the branch and you go lost control of that process. What's your experience been on that fronts? I think it's a sensible model for how you transition from in store to in branch start to at home finish. But I can also understand the concern for people who are used to finishing the process right there sit across the table. Yeah, I want to close this deal and being nervous about letting go the control that comes with letting the consumer kind of self serve for the end of the process. Yeah, I think it goes back. You know, it's pretty early in our our kind of digital evolution around that, but what I would say is the quality that comes through that kind of experience is much higher than self serving right because they're already your you know about them and you have that information. So to me and it actually is a better experience and I don't really think of it's like, Oh, I got them right there and need to get off the door that. That's kind of not the way we want to have our sales experience be eventually. Now we're obviously not there yet, but, like I talked about, it's not just like Oh, you need a home equity or need to unsecured. It's like what is your true need and in the current, you know, point you're in in your life or whatever you're trying to accomplish. And if they want to go back and do that later or they're you know, they're just they just came to drop off a deposit it, we don't really care. And if they go away and they decide they don't need it, then that's a good experience too. They thought it over and they researched it, but to saying Oh, I've got you and there in the branch and apply now that that that's not going to be our approach going for might have to do that with the autolons. You can't let him drive with the cars. A lot of it...

...it's true, but you know, I for the rest of them makes sense. Well, is there anything you wanted to cover today that I didn't ask? I feel like we've covered a good amount of ground here. Yeah, but was there anything you want to talk about that we didn't that we didn't hit on? I don't think so. I just you know, it's really exciting time to be in lending and just you know what's I've been in lending for a pretty good amount of time and to actually see these technologies and these things that we can leverages is really cool. And just having all these, you know, partners that we can work with and and identify how we can make that process better and make that lending as quick and a seamless and frictionless as possible is really cool. So I'm excited for that for the feature. I'll get my normal three closing question, but you just made me think of one more. When you think about people you can partner with and different ways to build digital experience, how do you think about evaluating the need to have that kind of it's tough with you have five partners to deliver the seamless experience that already knows what you know about somebody in all these different sacts? How do you think about the the value of one partner that does a lot of stuff for you in a way that's better integrated, versus different partners that may solve different problems? And how you evaluate the ability to kind of integrate that consumer experience, or at least bring the data, I think is maybe the most valuable part, the data that you already have, into those experiences so you're giving that friction less, seamless experience to the consumer, no matter which technology partner you might be leveraging for a particular product this. I'm curious how you think about that, because it feels like one of the flies in the ointment for this kind of Hey, I've got lots of people I can partner with, but if I want to have a unified data and experience, like those two things seem a little bit of odds and I'm curious how you how you resolve that in your own mind or your own approach. Yeah, I don't think a onestop shop is what consumers want today, right. I mean just think of how many apps you have on your phone and no one has a problem to go to their chase APP or there. You know their mortgage APP or their other you know, no one has that problem. No one's like, I need to kind of see everything in there. I think that's kind of next level to if you can, like you say, you build that foundational level of data and then you have these partners that are part of that that you can kind of, you know, either put in that experience or, Hey, we have online banking, but they can kind of see all these other things that they may be signed up for or maybe something that we're trying to, you know, solve for them. So it's to me it's a onestop shop. I think is a is an old way of thinking the consumers and tomorrow they don't they don't necessarily need that all in one place and there's there's a lot of aggregators out there that do that and services that you can, Hey, you know, through Plat or through whatever, kind of add your bank account and add your investment accounts and take a look at that. So got well, if you've listened to the PODCAST, which you say you have, you know that I end these all with the same three questions. So I'll fire out of fire yet at these at you now. What's the best pre piece of career advice you've ever gotten. Okay, there's two. I had to pick two because I couldn't I couldn't use you to it's fine too. Is Fine, okay. But the first one is always...

...bring solutions. So if you're having always bring solutions. Yeah, if you're have an issue or a problem, never just bring that. Never bring that to the table. Always start with the solution. What's the problem here? The things I thought might work and that we can resolve this issue or this problem really be problem solving. But that that's where this alt is all about. All right, always bring a solution. Yeah, number two, I think the other one is is you have to own your career because nobody else cares. That's a big thing. A little harsh, uch are what are great you on that part point, but the meaning is is that you know you can do a good job, you can get all your task done, you can feel like, Hey, I'm great at my job, at do really good but if you don't have that relationship or your manager doesn't know or your boss doesn't know, our team doesn't know that you're doing those things, you might not get the next opportunity or the next project. So you have to be proactive in your career, even if it's about the things that you're doing and what you're kind of focused on so that everyone knows and then thinks, oh, hey, jeff did that really good thing and I'm going to bring him into this next project. Right, if you're sitting with your head down kind of just plugging away at the spreadsheets, that's never going to happen and those like experiences and opportunities aren't going to be afforded to you. To be clear, that Jeff did that really good thing is clearly fictionalize story. Now, that's great. Be Proactive in managing your career. I think it's very true, and people a big companies used to have like career tracks where you kind of got in the groove and you were just going to get to the end place. But I agree they don't think that's very much true anymore. And if you're not actively looking for the other opportunities, asking for the opportunities of making sure people know what you're looking for and what you've been contributing, you probably not. That didn't just fall in your lot. We would taught got. I got young kids and I keep telling you got like gotta ask for what you want, you got to be proactive, like there not just going to like, not just going to come to you because you why this one I really want to do. Well, right, yeah, did you go for it? Right, because it's not I'm going to come to you. Do you ask more to yeah, that's right. What's the best piece of career or, sorry, consumer lending or consumer banking advice? You've ever heard this? We talked about earlier, but and we've talked a lot about data. Right. But lending is data everything, every piece of lending, even back, you know, ten, twenty years ago. It's all about what data do I have on the customer? With Dada? Do I have on the collateral? With data do I have on the risk? And how you bring those together and make the right decision and problem solve for their customer? Right, and and then it's even on the back end. Right, all like secondary trading or hole and trading, all your trading is data, data and information, and to me that's the biggest thing I've ever done in lending. Is like that's how you have to look at it. Right. But if lending his data, than he, with the best data, data infrastructure and data processing, ultimately has an advantage. Absolutely, he or she, I should say. I'mly in trouble. I say he. But the institutions that have can best leverage the data are going to be those in position to make the best decisions. And the last question. What's one bold prediction for the future? So this one's lending specific and it's really real estate lending will be as fast as unsecured lending. Real estate lending will be as...

...found. I've talked to people in Helock that are trying to get down to twenty days and you know, we got unsecured in twenty minutes. You real estate will be as fast as as unsecured. That's a I go with you to you that is a bold prediction. Is Absolutely bold, but I'm confident it will happen. I definitely am. It's going to be a while, but it will all right. I like that's a good bold prediction. And on real estate learning will be as fast as on secure lending. I hope so. We like fast as certainly would be good for the consumer. Accident. I mean I went through a mortgage process recently and it was not as fast as not secure pros and definitely involved the notary coming to my house to make me sign document in your garage? Yeah, in the front yard on the not not the not my favorite part of the process. All right, well, tell I appreciate your joining. To say this was a great conversation. I have certainly learned a lot and I'm sure audience will as well. I appreciate the time. Awesome. Thanks so much. To Up Start. Partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan port bolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. Up Starts AI landing platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models. With fraud rates near zero, upstarts all digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto lending programs or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Upstart offers an into end solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile, with all digital underwriting, on boarding, Lan closing and servicing. It's all possible with upstart in your corner. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting UPSTARTCOM forward banks. That's upstartcom forward banks. You''ve been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player using apple podcast. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time. The views and opinions expressed by the host and guests on the leaders and lending podcast are their own and their participation in this podcast does not imply an endorsement of such views by their organization or themselves. The content provided is for informational purposes only and the discussion between the host and guests should not be taken as financial advice by companies or individuals.

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