Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 48 · 8 months ago

The Shift from Preventing Risk to Enabling Risk-Adjusted Rewards

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There’s a delicate balance between balancing risk and reward. Michael Reed, Chief Risk Officer at WSFS Bank, emphasizes how risk managers can partner with business owners to achieve “risk-adjusted rewards.” 

In this episode, Reed explains how to bring risk teams and business owners together to achieve an informed decision. He also discusses the importance of end-to-end digital transformation to create an optimal customer experience and evaluating the right fintech partnerships to help achieve this goal. 

We discuss:

  • The philosophy of providing risk-adjusted rewards rather than preventing risk
  • The symbiotic partnership between banks and fintechs
  • How the industry is doing at delivering frictionless customer experiences
  • The interplay between risk and automated digital experiences

To hear more from Leaders in Lending, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Leaders in Lending on your favorite podcast player.

If you think about it, we're we're not here to prevent risk, we're here to you will provide you know. I'll call it risk adjusted rewards. You are listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation. In more let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders and lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Michael Read, the chief risk officer whis Fass Bank. It's really interesting discussion. Michael came to banking from being a lawyer and outside counsel to the bank and other fantaxt and banks into the role of chief risk officer, and I think he's got a really interesting perspective. He had a phrase I love to talk about how he thinks about risk and risk management, which is risk adjusted rewards. It's kind of like risk adjusted tern. But how do you think about maximizing risk adjusted rewards? How do you partner with line of business owners to so they understand and can accept risk. That was a really interesting idea of shifting the responsibility of risk to business owners with information coming from the the risk team. We talked a lot about building a frictionless experiences, make some comparisons to what's happening in the broader retail space to how that's impacting banks, and a lot of discussion about the future collaboration between banks and Fintax and how banks and credit unions can take advantage of what and texts have to offer, what they really need to do to turn business and, most importantly, customer loyalty over times. It's really wide ranging discussion, I think one of a lot of interest. That's without further ado. Here's my conversation with Michael Read, the chief risk officer from Wisfass Bank. Hey, Michael, thanks so much for joining us today. I appreciate your making the time. Hey, Jeff, thanks for having me. It's great to be here and talking to you. Yeah, I wanted to start by just having you give us a little bit of your background. I mean, I feel like most kids. You know, I was asked this on a podcast. What do you want to be when you grew up? And I don't know anybody and asked what do you want to be when you grow up as a kid, answered a banker, and yet here we are in the banking...

...industry. So give you a little bit of your history of like how you ended up, you know, in this role at whist fast and how you got into the banking industry in general. All right, happy to do it. So I'll say growing up. I grew up in Canada. I don't know if you knew that, but I wanted to be a ski instructor. So I'm like a long wait from that at this moment. So you can do that when you retire to yes, that's not a bad way to do it. Exactly, exactly one of my retirement plans. So really, you know, got in into it by accident. I moved to the US really with plant as a lawyer and really with plans to be here a couple of years and moved back to Canada and not be a lawyer anymore and ended up being here for twenty que years and join during the firm that did a lot of work with banks. So I just got steeped into the banking industry and that led into, quite frankly, you know, financial services overall vintech companies. And then which is is financial has been a client of mine for almost twenty years and you know, we just found a way to kind of have a happy marriage. So it's been an interesting progression, as you sort of said, from yea lawyer to banker, but it's been great being in the industry for this long to see, even in twenty years, how much has changed. Yeah, it certainly is not a never a dull moment, I guess, the industry. I tell me a little bit about the the role you have at the bank and how you think about you know what it is. What's your what's your goal? is absolutely so. I'm our chief risk officer and so obviously we're manage our risk management group, which really supports the risk management activities throughout the company. If you think about it, we're we're not here to prevent risk, we're here to provide that. You know, I'll call it risk adjusted rewards. In our business that's a rewards and you know, so that's that's what we do. And then just give my background as an MNA, capital markets lawyer and so forth. I also work a lot on our MNA deals as well as our VINTECH partnerships like the one we have with upstart, and it's interesting to bring that perspective of sort of risk management to it because at the end of the day we're obviously driving towards,...

...you know, revenue and income generation, so you don't want, you know, our risk management issue to get in the way of that. But at the same time, I really I like the word risk adjusted rewards, because that's what I ask our team to focus on. What we're balancing risk and reward. I love that phrase. I feel like I always say it's about counsel. So I I appreciate that you came in as a lawyer, but some, all you feel like their job is to tell you know and and some feel like their job is to give you counsel about understanding the risks and allowing business owners to take decisions about what risks are worth it and tell you, you know, layout for me, the groundwork and in the landscape of what what's out there. And sometimes lawyers have to say no, you can't, you know, there's no going to jail kind of rule that we used to have any but you know, I feel like that idea, like how do we find a way to yes, and understand the risk and measure the reward. It's a pretty different approach than you often see in particularly bank risk groups, where they feel like they got the jobs more eliminate risk versus manage, identify and and, you know, kind of hold risk, you know, into the right level, given the rewards there. So it's an interesting approach. I'm curious how you think about driving that mentality through the team. I think there's like this big difference off in between understanding the changing nature of the risks that are out there and how you manage them and then having a team that's been steeped in a different way of thinking for twenty, thirty years adjusting to a different, different approach to managing risk. It's a great question and really it's kind of bringing my approach to being an outside council, like you describe, to it right. It's my approach always was. Let me, you know, give you the framework of what the risks and the opportunities are all tell you what I think you should do, but it's your decision at the end of the day and it's really getting for the risk people in particular. I'll kind of do it to fold. You know, you've got the like business owners in a bank, and you get the risk people. Yeah, and it's really getting the risk people to say, Hey, we're going to be partners with the business owners and tell them when they shouldn't do something, but we're otherwise going to try and find a way to yes right and and get to that yes answer at the end of the day. And...

...then you've got the other side of it when you're talking to the business owners and you're saying, Hey, we're not know people anymore. We're like, yes, here's how you get there. And instead of instead of waiting till something goes wrong and then asking us how to fix it, why don't you come to us up front, because we promise we're going to help you get the Yes if yes is the right answer. And so that's a cultural evolution. Right. But once you kind of start that dialog it's amazing how quickly because people then see the opportunity, right, the risk people see the opportunity to drive some value from a customer service to the business owners perspective in the business. Business ownerstand start to see a actually, we have partners here don't want me to do well in the business and they're going to protect me from like the real downsides. Yeah, I think it's also powerful when you actually put the truly the risk acceptance in the hand of the business owner. Right, like often you think the business are goes, I'm going to push for whatever I can get through the risk group. Right, if they say yes and we're going to yours. Going to push because that's their job to stop risk and my job get to push the business. And when you move that know to the business owner going hey, I've been told the risk and I have to make a calculus and it's my job to accept the risk or not knowing what it's been laid out. It's a really different mindset, both for the risk partner but also, I think, for the line of business executive who's got a now understand and accepted and kind of own the risk that comes with certain decisions and the reward. But to be making that tradeoff, you know, on the business side, as well as having it just be like a did risk sign off or not? That yeah, that I get that. I get a green light or a red light. Is it kind of different mentality? Yeah, look, can I give you a quick example of that? It didn't play out here at Wizz but in my sort of prior life I was I was in a board meeting and we were sort of walking through they were in a tough situation with the regulators and sort of walking through how they had to change their risk culture to make sure just what you were just saying like that the business owners understood that they owned the risk at the end of the day. And the nameless executive at one point said, so...

...what you're telling me is I have to own the risk. We're like you own the risk every day. But to your point is just driving that mindset to understanding. Okay, Hey, I own the risk and now I've got partners over here that can help me figure out how to make a, you know, an informed decision. Yeah, that's why I always loved the descripture counsel for my for my attorneys, is like they're there to give counsel, to help identify, give advice of the risk and then you, as a business owner, have to ultimately make the decision or own the decision, including the risk that comes with it. That's maybe a different mindset. I'm curious you see a changing shift in the nature of risks that you have to manage, particularly as you move to more digital delivery, more maybe partnerships with technology companies? What's changing about the nature of the risks that you're most worried about or the things that you have to manage and think about? Well, you know, an easy answer is just cyber risk overall. Right. I mean that that's sort of see them. Yeah, exactly. It's an easy standard answer and it's in its rip. So I'm a but to go go a little deeper on that. It for for financial institutions, it's understanding where your gaps are as you transition to more automated processes from manual, human, German driven processes and really trying to identify those gaps, because it's new learning. Right like before, if it was all manual, you kind of knew, okay, there could be human error, the handoff here could be wrong or something like that. Now you've got a lot of automation, you still have some human pieces to it. Where where those gaps and and I think that's where the shifting stands of risk are going, is the new learnings on identifying gaps between the technology piece and the human piece where there are those. That's really interesting. It is certainly I love that concept of moving to automation and how the different risks and I do also think it's important to people remember how to keep in mind, like how do you compare those risks? First to not on, because they're like it's not like ones risky or less, they're...

...the nature of the risks are different. And those two places and you've got to change what you're worried about in some ways as you go from humans to two machines doing things exactly right. And then, I'd say, on the other side, just give you know, upstart, upstarts of FINTAC is it needs, it's in you can speak to this, obviously better than me, but it's fintext also understanding who are, you know, always striving for the best technology and automation and so forth. Understanding, you know, it's a trying partner or deliver services them else, understanding where their risk gaps are, because there's always going to be that. And and as you know from ai to even Ourpa, as our processes increase automation, there's still always going to be a risk. It's going to be harder to identify them and you're gonna have to identify them faster, and it's that sort of hey, we have to change our risk gap reviews. Yeah, how do you think about the the partnerships with Fintax, and not just from up from a risk point of view, but it feels like, you know, fin tax are are they friend or are they foe? Maybe a little bit of both, like how do you see that evolving relationship between you know, the fin tax out there in the world providing consumer services, providing services to banks, and what banks really at a cord doing? What maybe banks can learn from the FINTAX space? It's a great question. And they are a bit of both right there, both friend and foe, and I think I think that's great. Banks compete with each other. They need some competition to evolve as well, and that's what we're seeing happen. And so I look, I think, as much as banks twenty years ago or fifteen years ago, when they before you kind of called it Fintech cool, it was business services, they'd say like yeah, they need us. Well, guess what, banks need fin tax more and more now, and that's kind of where I see this changing is and really from the perspective, Jeff, I mean we could take four or five different perspectives. I'll focus on one for a second in the consumer space, delivering sort of the on the channel for less customer experience. You know,...

...bank banks, they're good at high touch human interaction service. That's what they've been doing for hundreds of years. But in a world that's moving and at different at a different pace, when you got customers who have different ways of shopping and you know, just as I'm saying earlier, liken it to general retail for a second. Yeah, thanks. Don't have the capital or the time to invest in in the digital with the exception of the big banks, digital delivery of services, digital customer experience. So I think banks are going to have to rely on fin text do that. And then you know, by nature of a Fintech, at least at the moment, their primary customer experience delivery is not human interaction. So when you need both of those, that's where you find, I think, a good marriage. Yeah, I think consumers really do want both in different instances, and so it's really important that you find the way to. How do you think? That's idea of frictionalist process. I think is really interesting. How have you seen the execution of that or the mistakes, and maybe you're made as people think about the shift to digital and I feel like there's this big difference between what often has digital transformation and new stuff I want to do and what is really delivering that vision of frictional list, which can be I talked to a bank that said we've got a digital law and I s a great that you have to come to the bank to sign it. When you're done, you come in and sign in the branch. I went with you. Think, hold on a minute. It's so how do you think we're doing as institution, Asians, on kind of the focus on delivering friction list versus maybe other, you know, short term wins or digital focus or things like that? I would say they focusing on just financial institutions for a second. Ones that are doing it ex see exceedingly well are basically looking at like a digital transformation from end to end. It's human nature for us always look at the next new shiny object right and in in my example, or what we're talking about here, at the new shiny object is the front end of the house, what the...

...consumer see and so forth, like Oh, that's really cool website, that's really cool how you can click through and see your you know, loan choices, for example, and yeah, that sort of piece. But then when they decide they're going to, you know, when the consumer decides, are going to purchase that product, if you haven't thought through that entire process and tried to automate that to make, just to your example right, have a digital signature at the end, let alone all the processes and procedures required or otherwise that you need to go through, it's not going to make that experience great and it's not a true digital experience. Yeah, I think that's such a true trusm. And, by the way, it's not just financial institutions. In Silicon Valley all the time you hear Shiny Object Syndrome where people are, you know what, the sexy new thing they want to release, a new front end. You Ax, it moves and real to whatever. It's got some fancy Whiz Bang feature. But then, like, that's not the thing that actually ultimately often drives value, which is a simplifying a process, making something easier, you know, the back end infrastructure. So I think it's a really interesting thing. Is you think about that frictionless process concept and kind of delivering great experiences? How do you think the nature of loyalty, multiprot like a consumer, are they coming to one one institution for lots of products? How do you earn the right to serve them on a repeat basis or across multiple products versus? I often you say that it used to be, you know, relationship and real estate. Literally, like the branch it was closest to me, is where I went to do the stuff. I was actually reading the news this point. So it was eighty two. Was the first debit card coming to Canada, which is like it feels like that's the oldest thing in the world. And then like that's not that long ago, right, in some sense that like you had to actually physically walk in with the check to turn it into cash, right, and so you always went to the same place because that's just how it worked. Now you don't have to. How do you think we earn the right for customers to come back and be repeat, repeat users of our services in a world where it's...

...not based on like, you know the branch I always walk into because I know the parking lot and I know the guy behind the counter. Yeah, that that's fair. It's a great question and and you know, I sort of it again, like in it a little bit to retail. Right do you go? Do you shop at the same grocery store and why do you do that? Or do you shop a multiple grocery stores and in why do you do that? Or a hardware store and the light right? But to your point, you know, I'll just go back to what I was saying. It's delivering consistent customer service. For first of all, right, like if if someone has that great experience, whatever the delivery is, whether it's through human interaction, whether it's purely online or it's hybrid, if they feel like they got a great customer experience, you're going to be at the top. That's the brand loyalty piece. are going to be at the top of the list. And I think the second thing is is making the customer feel like they got valued right, and it's not just always about dollars and sense. At the end of the day, did I get some value for this? So having a frictionless experience, meaning not just technology, not just human but figuring out how to kind of marry those things together so that when the customer wants, you know, when they think about the grocery sto if they want to go into the grocery store. They may want to go on their own, find their groceries, do self, check out and leave. They may want to stop at the butcher and ask, you know, what's a good fish for me to cook tonight? Right. So you got to be able to find a way to drive value in multiple different ways. Why? Like the Omni channel sort of view of things, but making as frictionless as possible so that they can choose how they want to purchase a financial product, when they want to purchase it. And you know how easy is it? And that to me is people don't think of it as value, but I think it's value, right, and value than drives length. Yeah, I think applying the concept of frictionless to human interaction as really fascinating, because we right now put a lot of friction in human reaction and the terms of like five yars or lines or whatever. It's it's hard to get to a person,...

...and applying the concept of frictionalists to a digital experience where those few things to do, but also to a human experience where it's as easy as possible to get to the person with the knowledge that I need, is it's actually a really interesting paradigm. It is it is and that's where I think, especially in a'll move away from consumer just for a second, but in the small to midsize business world, that's where branches still play a role in my mind, for banks right it, because not everything those businesses need can be done online. Like transactional they get they can do their transactional stuff online. They don't know for that, but they sometimes need that trusted advisor. They need that you know, hey, I need something new, I can't really figure out what it is, and being able to either pick up the phone or walk into a branch and here's I'll throw the digital right schedule your appointment online so you like you know you're going to go there some right away. Like that, to me is where you you can find that friction most human experience because you get to them right to your point, you get to them right away. You're not clicking through, waiting online all that kind of stuff. It's interesting you put that in the context of small media business owners, but I find consumers are the same. I mean they they got transactions. They want to be easy, but like the level of financial sophistication of most consumers are understanding out sophistications. Maybe A to judgmental of a word, but the understanding of the breadth of financial products and how to pick which one might be a fit for them. Should I I want to retire, like do I have a one K at my office? So I want an IRA or a Rath IRA or like Quoa. What's my I want to put it into an index fund, or do I like what do I do with them? Like that's hard. Or even just a mortgage. I go on a fifteen or a thirty, and you know, what is this? You know, like what was the Difference Between Fifteen and twenty? Twenty five percent down? Why? Like, those are hard choices that I think most consumers need someone to help walk them through and that's a huge opportunity on the human side to provide real value to them. That's not just a digital experience, and that's an excellent point. And that and that's sort of goes to the other point of you can read all you want on online and and you know will will,...

...just for the sake of our podcast here, agree that what you read online is accurate and so forth. Like at the end of the day, you can read online, but talking to someone to kind of get context and perspective when you're trying to make those life choices and those financial choices and so forth, is and is invaluable at the end of the day, and so I agree with you. It's it's a marriage between these two different types of delivery channels, but I think it's also a marriage between fintext and banks and how they kind of put package that together for people. But frankly, I mean a little bit maybe a pie in the sky, but to do some good in the world right, I think fallen and help them, you know, achieve what they want to achieve. It is maybe one of my this is going to sound wrong, but my biggest surprise is coming into banking because as a technology guy, you think of banking as a numbers industry that's focused on, you know, outcomes and profits and whatever, and the the mission orientation of most consumer banks around helping their customers, both small businesses, their business customers, but helping consumers achieve their I find, I don't think it's appreciated enough outside the industry how much that is at the at the core of what drives most people in the banking industry day to day. I'm glad you said that because any it is absolutely true and having made the having been in the financial services industry, you know, you hear it, you talk about it. But then, being a quote unquote banker, I mean people, people here, live it every day and when I talk to peer bankers and so forth, if it's not the first thing we talked about, it's close to the first thing we talked about. Is like what you're doing for your community, what you're doing for the people in your community and so forth. You know, and at the same time, you know running a business. But the mission, as you said it's so well, is really helping people achieve their goals and they it is sort of the lifeblood of this or community bank industry. We did all girlup wanting to be bankers. We watch it...

...so wonderful life. Yeahat Wander Old George Bailey and there. Yeah, I do want to go back to your comment on friction lists and just ask you this. From a risk point of view, I mean there's this kind of, I think it's really interesting balance between removing steps for a customer to achieve an outcome in the risk that's associated with. You know, just take how many things do I ask for? An ID verification or an income verification? where I like I can automate that and reduce the friction, and there's this kind of balance, whether it's how do you think about that paradigm, because it's like on one side you're pushing towards ask for less stuff, automate more stuff, simplified process, reduced friction, and then there's like risk and there's real business benefit to one and real risk on the other. And how do you think about kind of the balance of those two things? Well, I'll go, maybe not exactly where you were going, but how I think about it is, all right, what's what is the highest probability, highest risk in the worst outcome related to a risk, right, so, and it's your highest risk isn't necessarily always your worst outcome, but one are those two things first of all, and how do how do we address those in whatever process we're doing for a product, right, and then from there, all right, how can we make that process better without it increasing the risk that we already have there? Right. So, to your point, like you know, whether it's customer identification, you know, the taking the picture or whatever it is, it's think about what's your highest risk is and what they have greatest loss is related to a risk. Taking care of those first, improve the process and then decide if some of the other risk or are worth taking or not. And some of them are and some of them right, and that that's how you kind of improve your process, and I want to say automate, because sometimes it's not automate, but you you improve the process, driving towards less friction. Yeah, I think automated processes are interesting and that they have curcier thoughts on this. The the interesting nature of ability to...

...identify in resolve issues quickly. So your point of like what's the worst case? How bad could it get? Well, sometimes I can fix some quickly, but they also are like operating at scale, so they can also the other side where like if this thing is wrong, you know. So I think there's part of risk mitigation. It's like how quickly can we see and stop and respond to issues in a process if we're seeing, I think what this for cyber attacks, or I think about it for, you know, money laundering, if decks, where it's like do you need a hundred percent prevention or do you need to like hey, we can catch something really quick where somebody is you know, and we're catching a maybe not here but before the final stuff, we can kind of push things off and feel pretty confident that we can put it put a stop to things. And that's interesting because it changes the nature of versus having to train a whole bunch of people on our new process and how long it take to roll out and how quickly could you notice if something was going wrong? Yeah, well, and that's a great, great picture of what I was saying. Right is is where in that automated process do you want to be in terms of nifying the risk resolving the risk? Are you trying to resolve, identify and resolve every risk, or you trying to identify and and stop your greatest risk first and then, you know, go from the one that can be the most damaging. That kind of interesting calculus of likely to happen and bad as she gotta like. Yeah, well, multiplication there to figure out where you're real the greatest threat for stand it is. It's like in the credit world, you know probability to default and lost given default, right, and it's those two things figures right, just the different Lens on it exactly. Well, my God, I was getting before I hoped to my closing questions. Guess was there anything you expected to ask or wanted to talk about that I you know that we didn't cover or anything else you wanted to kind of go over now? I don't think so. I think it you know, when we were taught what we were talking about is sort of where I thought we would go today. It's been a fun conversation and good. I like when we meet expectations on...

...where we're going to go. I do have my the standard three questions I used to close this out, so I'd love to get your take. Number One, and I think this a very interested in your best career advice you've gotten, because you've ouasually had, had an interesting career across a dumb different countries, exepparate professions. So what's the best career advice you've gotten? Well, like a true Canadian, I got to give you two. So, but I'll go quick. The first one is your best investment is people and in these in to me, this other one goes hand in hand, is never be afraid to ask the question. And so, to me, if you're in people, you're always learning from them, as they're learning from you, and you're then never afraid to ask a question. And Learning, to me, is what what it's all about. I got to ask a fall about how do you put into practice your best investment is people. I feel like that's one of those things that gets put on corporate you know, Board Room presentations are a biggest ask. Those are people. But then, like turning, like what that really means to you and how you invest in people and make that a reality and a company, I think it's quite different. What's your tip on how to actually put that into practice? It's a great question and it's really about prioritization of your time, right. And so for me as a leader, I think my number one priority is actually people. So I want to invest in people. So I set aside each week, you know, a significant amount of my time just to invest in people. Don't want to be invested in and in if you can prioritize that and then you know, figure out, like we're talking about risks, right, like you figure out, okay, which things don't I really never need to get to, and then what are the other things get to, you will always find a way to invest in people. All right, that's great, and I actually love your second once one of my favorite pieces of advice, because they're I got to tell you how many times I've sat in the room and ask the question I was it. It's great being in a new industry. Sometimes you have the ability go like, I've been a banking for thirty years, so maybe I just don't have to like, can you explain this to me? And the number of times you do that where you feel like you're asking a stupid question every knows and that half the people in the met to come to you afterwards and go hey, thanks for asking that. I had the same question and I just didn't want to seem like I was too stupid...

...to know the answer is is incredible to me and it's it's always like a superpower to have no ego about just going can I, can I just ask this things? I don't quite get it. It really is an amazingly powerful tool. It is, you know, so so in in that advice. What what I got was never fraid to be the dumbest person in the room. is a simplest APP and we okay, that's fine, I'll ask the question. Yeah, get the ego out of the way and just admit to like, I don't understand this. That's I think it is a real survant. I find the smartest people are the ones who do that. Like the smartest people are the ones who are willing to ask this question. Fair enough, first principle thinking. So I second question. What's the best piece of advice you've gotten around consumer banking or consumer lending? Never stopped adapting and sharing. Okay, you know, there's that what I was saying about learning. If you if you're continually trying to adapt and you're continually sharing what you learn, you know, I think you will continue to, you know, grow excel in the consumer lending space and in it is. It is a community. It truly is an I'm sure you've experienced out with ups. It's a community. So just never stopped at adapting and share. I think there's probably not advise people gave twenty years ago, but we are in a rapidly changing world and that's good advice for today. And then my last question for you. What do you have? Can you give me one bold prediction about the future? Something we can bring you back and hold your feet to the fire see if you were right or wrong? This one's really put me on the spot. And then it maybe I'm checking it out with this, but you know, like fashion, what old. What is old will be new. So think of by now, pay later. For example, let's like the digital version of the layaway from our right. So I just think whatever was old yesterday will be new again some warrow in a different version. I think that's fast. I've actually thought that about bank fenttech partnerships for a long time, that there's been this period of time where banks have fi felt like they had to build technology. And I will did you build your core or your gl or? You know, like a lot of those were. You may...

...not think of Jack Henry and IIS a five service FINTAX, but they are technology companies that serve financial institutions and have a very similar relationship to what I think a lot of fin texts will end up having with FIS. To your point, like everything old is new again, without the little period where we didn't like it, but and now we've realized maybe it's a pretty good way to do business, and I think you'll see that in consumer trends as well as technology trends. Yeah, and that's a great point that you make. You know, in terms of those technology providers, they are your partners. Yeah, and then you'd have a good partnership mentality exact. Well, Michael, I appreciate your making the time this point and this was a very fun conversation across international borders and career industries and the whole thing. But I really appreciate your insights and making the time to share with the audience. Take Jef. Thanks for having me on the PODCAST. There's a lot of fun. Upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. UPSTARTS AI landing platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models, which fraud rates near zero. Upstarts all digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto lending programs or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Upstart offers an into insolution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile, with all digital underwriting, onboarding loan closing and servicing. It's all possible with upstart in your corner. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting UPSTARTCOM Ford Banks. That's upstartcom Ford Banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player using...

...apple podcast. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time. The views and opinions expressed by the host and guests on the leaders and lending podcast are their own and their participation in this podcast does not imply an endorsement of such views by their organization or themselves. The content provided is for informational purposes only and the discussion between the host and guests should not be taken as financial advice by companies or individuals.

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