Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 88 · 1 month ago

Strategic Community Investments By Credit Unions

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Many credit unions offer traditionally underserved members an advantage in not just banking, but financial planning. One crucial asset they can offer is financial education, providing not only a way to manage their money but also a way to achieve their financial goals.

In this episode, Charlotte Nemec, President and CEO of Canopy Credit Union, talks about what community means to a credit union, and how an investment in members helped to grow their lending portfolio.

Join us as Jeff and Charlotte discuss:

  • Technology fixes and staffing changes that can help expedite limited time marketing campaigns to bring more members in
  • The structure of a CUSO and what it meant to have 4 credit unions come together in one community
  • Leading a credit union with a ‘people first’ mindset 

Want to learn more about how Upstart partners with credit unions? Check out this case study mentioned in the episode.

And then you're listening to Leaders and Lending from Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week, here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, best practices around digital transformation, and more. Let's get into the show. Welcome to Leaders and Lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Charlotte Nemick, the president and CEO of Canopy Credit Union in Seattle, Washington. I think it was really interesting conversation for me because we really dulled into Charlotte's history coming from the HR side of the house and specifically from HR t q SOO where she worked with multiple credit unions, which I thought gave up passening perspectives. We spent a lot of time on people. We also dove into some of what she sees as a shifting way her institution kind of thinks of itself and what it represents to the community, A phrase I love, she said, coaching not counseling, and how I think about the difference between the two and what they're trying to achieve and coaching both their team members but also importantly their members are customers. And then it's an interesting program they had called the One Day Loan Special that I thought was really fascinating and how that worked and the results they've seen. So it was really a fun, interesting conversation and I think you'll enjoy it. So please enjoy the conversation with Charlotte Mmick. Charlotte, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for making the time to join us today. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I understand your weather is not is a little little dice here than ours down here where you're at in southern California is kind of like this time of year. I don't like the nice weather because it doesn't feel seasonal. I put on a jacket when it's sixty five just to feel like it's actually winter. Well, I don't have that concern up here. Uh, definitely seasonal. But no, I don't mind this now. I just I don't love driving in it. But actually I don't love the way other people driving it. I'm okay. I think that's probably a metaphor for life with someone. Yeah, exactly is real life lesson there? Yes, Well, I would like to start the podcast by ask my guests a little bit about their path into the financial services and banking industry. So I feel like everybody takes an interesting path to get here. What was what was your path to where you're at today? Oh? You know, I UM, people ask me this question a lot, just UM. I think that happens when you get to the quote unquote corner office. People want to know how did you get there? And I feel like it's been a different journey than UM probably is typical. And the fact that I was in the HR field, had heard about a job with a local credit union here in Spokane, and uh, not fully understanding. I've been a member of a credit union forever, but I hadn't really done a lot of research on what the credit union bank difference was. And so UM, I thought I liked the idea that I can maybe have quote unquote bankers hours, and so pursued that position as an HR generalist, and it turned out to be this great opportunity where I actually worked for four credit unions at the same time. It was...

...a cuso, which I didn't even know when I first applied, and so I got introduced to four different credit unions for different cultures for different ways of doing business, and UM just fell in love with the industry itself. Eventually UM landed a position with just one of those credit unions. A vice president position came available, so I took that and stayed in that role for quite a few years before eventually UM applying for the CEO job and just have been in that chair for a little over four years. So it's uh, yeah, HR was my my first, my first introduction into credit union land. This must have been a fascinating experience to be an HR for four different instances. I mean, like that's I feel like HR such often the culture, the practices are different institution institution. What was it like to be at a CUSO where you're like, like that just feels very odd to be HR at four different institutions and I'm sure operated quite differently. Yeah, So I love that you're asking me that question, Jeff, because you know, the credit union difference has often been touted as being collaborative, that we as credit unions often times partnered together to do different initiatives UM. And back in that time at UM, the local credit union community here was very tight enknit. There was not a ton of credit unions in town. UM. But I have so much admiration for the four CEOs of those credit unions who put aside their egos and said, we need we need help in the HR side of things, and UM, we're able to entrust me to keep confidential those things that need to be kept confidential, because of course a far does have a lot of confidential information that you gather. UM. And not only that, Jeff, what I really was admired so much about these four CEOs was they also invited me to have a chair at the table, and I was in strategic planning for all four of them. I sat in on very you know, strategic conversations that I was interested to not be sharing, you know, secrets. I don't know if they would be considered secrets. But UM, I really attribute it to M the cooperative movement, but also the fact that these four individuals were very much collaborative in nature. And there was one large credit union and three small is how it works, so that large credit union, you know, never said to me, you know, Charlotte, we're doing this because we want to merge one of those three smaller credit unions into us. There was never that UM push for me to do any of that kind of backdooring. It was always up front, and yeah it was I loved learning the culture of all four of them, and and to be honest with you, Jeff, I got to pick the one that fit me best when it came time to apply for that vice president role. It was very fascinating...

...and I loved all four of them, but there was one happened to be spoken Federal later became Canda being Credit Union. Um, that just it felt like home for people who are thinking about that in their careers and what if it is? But how did you think about that? Because it's it's a very interesting experience to get to experience four cultures and once most of us kind of like I've been through a couple of companies and I but you iterate, it's you know, six years here, seven years there, and your sense and field the culture is different, and it's it's not like comparing apples apples where you've been at a place a similar amount of time and can kind of see them concurrently. So I'm curious what that's a unique perspective. I'm curious what it was that when you were in that role you get say, hey, this is the one that fits me better. How you think about you know, determining that. Yeah, so you know, and everybody's going to have different criteria for what fits for them. My criteria was really, where do I feel like I can make the biggest impact and that impact comes from where am I most empowered to give my input and listen to and heard and see that come to fruition. Not that all my ideas did that, don't get me wrong, but um I will I'll forever remember the day that I came to um one of the vice presidents at Spokan Federal at that time, and said, we have a problem with one of our main members of management who is eating up people, spitting them out, and she cannot keep a staff. She her staff is unhappy. I'm hearing all this feedback, I'm doing exit interviews. It's all really troublesome. And I had similar conversations at other institute. At the other three institutions. Oh yeah, but she's been here for a long time, was typically the response I was seeing is, Oh, but she's you know, that's just kind of the way she is, that's her personality. Those kinds of things. And this vice president who eventually went on to be. The CEO looked at me and she said, what do you suggest and I said, he there, we terminate or we find a different role for her that does not lead people, and it really they took that into consideration. They sat down, they developed m a position for her that actually she had been there for over thirty years, so she was very well established UM and so she ended up being much happier to this team ended up being much happier. And so it's those kinds of may seem small and insignificant at the time, but when an organization is willing to make those hard choices and step into um tough decisions, I just really admired it, and that was what I viewed as what I wanted to be a part of. Let me ask you, we're like totally off the script we had, but that's okay. I want to ask you a more question, which is in your role, as you know, President CEO. I think it's interesting to your point about being a strategic advisor in the HR function because so many institutions say, well, are people are critical asset and then the people...

...team, as a SATO called or HR is like a subfunction of this. It's not really incorporated into strategic planning, strategic thinking. It's it's kind of like an administrative function. I know, we gotta do performance reviews and what it is, and you're going to deal with complaints and whatever, but it's not thought of as a strategic thought leader and how we think about the business. And if people are your most valuable asset, maybe it should be. I mean that the chief people officers like your CFO of your most valuable asset. I'm curious how you think about as you've gone come from the HR side of the business into your current leadership role, how you bring HR into the fold for those strategic conversations. How do you make that real? Because it feels like this disconnect from what I what I hear from almost every company you talk to, people are the most valuable asset. And then the reality of how the management structuring organization treatment of employees actually is handled in the kind of degree of UM involvement that the people function has in strategic planning And thought, well, um, you're about ready to get me on my soap back, Jeff, I think the right pot Okay, So for me and how I have viewed the success of where we've come, Um, is that culture is my number one priority are people and their lives. I view them as whole people. And I often say this, You come to work as a whole person. You come to work with the fight you just had with your spouse fifteen minutes before you walked out the door. You come to work with your child having puked all over you, you know, right right before you walked in the door of the credit and you know, all the things that happen in life they're bringing with them to the job. And and no, there's no amount of you need to leave that at the door attitude that's going to change. That These are human beings that need to be treated with the dignating respect of what life throws at all of us. And so I the way that we view our team is HR is one of the most vital roles, if not the most vital role that we have. And um I have. I'm very fortunate. I have an extremely young and eager HR director who at every turn I have him in budget meetings like I don't. I don't limit him to just people discussions. I pull him in for budget meetings because what's our biggest expense, Our big expense our people and so when I talked to him about, hey, our expense ratio is not where I'd like it to be. You know what kind of ideas and thoughts do you have from an HR perspective on how we can manage that better? You know, his input is vital to our ongoing success. Um And and he does represent our staff and does a great job of doing that. The good, the bad, and the ugly that comes with that job is is a vital part of our continued success. And viewing people as those whole individuals, to me is my first priority because my my feeling is I treat them well, They're going to treat our members well if they feel cared for and appreciated. The turnaround on...

...that is they will then in turn treat our members the same way. Um So I laugh at the whole I'm actually I don't even laugh at it. I scoff at it probably is the better term at the quiet quitting quote. I find it an excuse that is unacceptable for us as employers to use because, in my opinion, the generation that's coming in that's quote unquote quiet quitting. I feel like, no, they're just as actually asking for what they deserve from their employer, and if they're not going to get it, then expect to get what you get. And I think treating people with dignity and respect as an employer is your number one priority, and if you can't manage to do that, don't expect them to work their high knees off for you. I just I don't see how there's a connection with UM blaming the victims here. It's almost like the ultimate form of UM gas lighting. You know. It's like, now, let's take a look in the mirror before we start throwing them under the bus. So that's my theory on that one. Yeah, that phrase has been so interesting as I've heard it, because it seems to be used for both people going that's not what you hired me to do, and you're asking too much and I wouldn't like reasonable expectations, clear expectations. And then also some people let's go, I just don't want to do my job, but I'm gonna call it quiet quitting and hope to get paid. And it's like those are very different things. Employees taking empowerment over Hey, what are my responsibilities and what am I doing and what am I signing up for? And are we on the same page about what I'm you know, what I'm being held accountable to, which feels fair um and saying hey, this wasn't in my job description. If you want me to do it, that's fine, But like, let's be fair about you know, is that something tom about I got. I got a full place. So if you want me to put something else on it, just tell me what to take off. And that's your per for you to tell me that that's fine. That feels very different that that I hear as quiet quitting and that's that seems just like good management of your responsibilities as an employee, um, and not like and that's a that's again coming back to HR. Coming full circle with that to me, is HR's responsibilities to identify those people that just basically don't want to be there, They don't want to work, they're not committed to the mission and vision of the organization. Between the HR department and their direct supervisor, let's find a way to help them understand this is not a good fit for you nor a good fit for the organization. We wish you the best of luck because you're a great person, just not a good fit for us. That's different than hey, I expect you to work sixty hours a week and get paid for forty or you know, I expect you to work weekends and you know I'll pay you for it, But I expect you to work every weekend. That's not that's not unreasonable because we all deserve to have opportunities to build our life outside of work too. Hi. I'm Market Club President and CEO of Agricultural Federal Credit Union in Washington, d C. When we wanted to acquire more members to personal loans, we knew we...

...needed a partner that allowed us to scale quickly and easily. With up Start, we were able to go live in fifty four days without adding hoodcom and we were able to learn previously underserved our hours with upstarts model. If you'd like to learn more about our partnership with Upstart, you can read more at upstart dot com, Forward slash Lenders. Thank you, and back to the show. Shift away from HR. I know where spend much time on HR, but it's a great a great topic, but I do want to talk about. You know, when we had our first conversation, you talked about as you took over a CEO at Canopy, the desire to shift who and what the institution represented and did for the community a little bit. So I'd love for you to talk about what your vision is for what the credit union really is in terms of its involvement in the community or how you remember seeing you and what you're providing. Yeah, so I think that going back to HR really, I think the the whole idea of how to you make your credit unions stand out in a very crowded market was something that was on my mind from the minute I took this job. Um, we have eight billion dollar credit unions doing business in a population of five hundred thousand UM for the county A Spokane County is five hundred thousand people and there's eight billion dollar credit unions doing business here. At the time I took over, we were about one fifty seven hundred fifty seven million. So it was really um priority for me to say, how can we be different and who really are we? And in going through some some strategic initiatives one year we UM were introduced to the c d f I concept and what is a community development financial institution and how did they impact your community? And honestly, Jeff, it was lights went off and fireworks went off and I said, this is why I got into this business, this is why I chose a bank, a credit union over a banking job. And I feel really passionate about going back to the roots of what credit unions were established to do, which was to serve those of modest means UM you know, and not for profit, not for charity, you know, is the concept behind that. So I think that we're not a charitable organization, but our idea is by providing people that are traditionally underserved or UM disenchanted or don't trust the traditional financial structure of UM credit unions or banks or what have you, and are turning their their financial needs over to payday lenders and the buy now, pay here car lots and predatory lenders. How can we impact our community in a way that gives them an opportunity to learn and grow and provide them with UM financial education potentially alone, but...

...not always a yes, sometimes it's a no end and give back to our community that way by saying, once we teach people how to manage their money and how to get through life with the income that they make, then they will be better citizens, They will be better parents, they will be better contributors, to the overall good of our community, and so we got on that. We embrace that mission and really have been doing a lot of work to get us to that point. So that's been where we are. Yeah, I think it's fascinating. I want to ask how do you think about that financial education and helping people understand how to live within the income that they have. I feel like this is some part of that is what I often refer to as that how do you get your kids to eat the broccoli? I mean, it's like it's not the fun thing to do, and people kind of theoretically wanted but would struggle with, you know, putting the things they know they should be doing better or differently into practice. How do you think about that? Because I feel like it's one of the hardest problems in the job of serving the underserved community is helping them understand I just understand how to do better, but actually implement that in real life and follow through when things get hard and manage that through the good times of that. How do you think about that education and then providing the right structures to help people actually achieve what they're trying to do. Yeah, it's an excellent question. Jeff and one that I will be honest with you. There is um challenges with that because you have to meet them where they are, and if they don't want to meet you halfway, you're you're going to just be you know, crawling up a tree and falling back down at all the time. So we have a very structured methodology that we use. It's there's a software platform that we utilize to track progress and success. Those people that commit to a financial education program with us UM, the one on one coaching that we do, those people are the ones that really we see the biggest impact with So we see their credit score going from a five twenty UM and going up two hundred points. You know, we just actually it's one of the ones that's standing out in my head is we started coaching with her in February and we just got a report back that she's up in the seven hundreds now. So helping them understand how to raise their credit score the impact having a higher credit score makes on their day to day lives. A lot of people do not understand that your rent, your insurance, all of the impacts can that they can have on your financial life. It's not just when you go to get alone. Helping them understand that aspect of it has been really amazing. Those individual one on one sessions I think actually sometimes can be easier and because they can see and we can track their progress. Then we get into the financial coaching where we're actually doing a group setting, and we do a lot of that too. We do quite a bit actually a group um coaching where we walk...

...people through a budget process, we walk people through how to track their spending, we walk is everybody going to be impacted by it? Maybe? Maybe not, But I think that if you give them just a little bit and they get a little bit of that information, they may not utilize it today, but a year from now, maybe they look at overdrawn you know, checking account and say I'm all done with this, or I can't get an auto loan and I have no way to drive to work. Those kinds of things. To me, we're planting seeds. Were just constantly planting seeds. But yeah, there are some times where it's it's frustrating because people just want to take out another loan and we have those people, Jeff all the time just to prove my loan. I don't want to listen to your dumb coaching well, I'm sorry, we're not going to give you a loan because here's what what the problem is. It's not a no, it's a yes, and here's what we have to do to get you to a final approval. You use the phrase also when we've initially spoke, you said, we think of it as coaching, not counseling, and I'd love for you to what's the demarcation line? What do you mean by coaching not counseling? You know? I you know, having grown up with being an athlete in my school years, I always viewed my coach as my cheerleader, as my person that was going to give me the best um advice he possibly or she could possibly give me, and then it was up to me two implement it versus a counselor. Oftentimes you're going to look for answer, for somebody to feed you the answers to what you need, and that you just take that into consideration. There's my dog. I apologize. UM. So I think that the difference between coaching is let me stand beside you, and counseling is more I we feel is not um. It feels more UM. Like I'm giving you the opportunity to say um, you tell me what to do and then you do it for me. So I think there's we just really want to be a coach and stand beside you to do this work, not be a counselor I I you know, some people have a really bad connotation to that anyway, So the coaching element seems to sell better as well. Good coaches are invaluable. My kids are in their school age sports careers. They both found sports that they like, my two boys, and I find that like there's some things that only their coach can get through to them. Like I'll you know, they'll come back to me and tell me something that coach told me this. I go, I've been telling you that for three years, and you keep working like I'm crazy, and then your coach tells you and all of a sudden, you know, you come to me like it's newly received. Yeah, my goodness. But a good coach that can that can connect and you know, give you the pointers and then celebrate your success when you're able to find your way execute is is an a valuable thing in sports and...

...in life. I think. So I wanted to ask you out one of the things, which is you guys have run some one day loan specials. Tell me a little bit about these programs. I think they're an interesting concept. Yeah, so this is This came to life UM as a result of well, a celebration of International Credit Union Day. UM. We always wanted to do something special for our members in our community, and we kept seeing the need for people to do a lot of debt consolidation, things that maybe they wouldn't have known that the credit Union can do for them, um, outside of maybe some kind of large marketing campaign that we had, we hadn't yet done. So this started out kind of as an experiment for International Credit Union Day, having no idea how um much demand there was going to be, and we just priced it extremely well. We didn't we don't risk face price during one day long special. We do unsecured lending at a fixed rate for all credit scores and UM, huge response, huge response. We price it, you know in a way that we feel is a fair to a plus credit but also extremely fair to you know that C C D credit. UM. We we look at debt to income ratios and all those other factors when we make decisioning, but we do. It's a it's been a really successful campaign that we do, UM, I will say, and I think I told you this UM at one point Jeff that UM, the amount of stress it puts on the staff was concerning to me. UM. Not knowing it was going to be as popular as it was, we were not prepared for the amount of applications that came in. So over the years we've been doing this since I think we did our first in twenty nineteen UM, and then we perfected a little more in UM and we decided after one we decided, let's try to do a one week loan special. So yeah, and honestly, UM we said no, not not. It was successful, but if you consider how many applications come in, UM, that same number of apps came in over a week as they did over a day, and our team said we'd rather just power through the one day and do all our follow ups within twenty four hours versus having to do this over the course of an entire week, where every day you walk in the door not knowing how many apps came in overnight, etcetera. So, UM definitely some learning lessons during the process of doing this one day loan special, but has been very successful for us. What what have you done to lower the burden of the day,...

...because it's I mean, I often I've referred to entrepreneurship. It's really interesting. It's like I would like the right next problem. Like, as you're building a business, you want to you're always gonna have some sort of problem. But like, like, if you do this, probably the problem you want is like too many people came in and we couldn't process. That was a problem I wanted. But now you have the problem, you have to solve it. What did you do to lower the burden on your team or to make it manageable to do this? And obviously moving is seven days didn't seem to satisfy their needs. What are the learnings you've applied to kind of making that thing functional for your team in the course of a day. So we did some technology UM fixes where we decided to UM really make the auto decisioning process UM. I don't want to say looser, but we definitely took off some restrictions in the auto decisioning process after that first UM go around so that we could get more of that an A plus paper even some of the higher B paper approved. Just in and out it's you know, auto decision done. We're good UM and then UM, you know, from a technology perspective that was working for us, we actually ended up using some different UM staff. We pulled some different staff in on the next UM go around where we had more underwriters ready to go, and just really that was their main focus was just making sure these one day loans were getting approved. You know, those lower paper grades were really being reviewed quickly and thoroughly. And so we had we doubled the number of underwriters that were UM in in the queue, making sure that they were available no meetings on that day. UM. We we bring in and celebrate for the staff this last year, this actually in October, we brought in a food truck UM at the main location, we brought in lunch at the other locations, and just tried to make it a celebration for our staff and less feeling like, oh my gosh, here we go again, this one day loan special that's you know, crazy successful, but also one day of you know, my hair's on fire, so really try to make that more appealing to all of them. So yeah, I mean, I think between technology and just acknowledging UM that we had some people shortages and we couldn't have people gone on that day that especially those key people for like underwriters and processors that make the actual loan officers. UM job a lot. It's interesting shift and people are on no meetings. Maybe I'd like to do one day long specials just to have no meetings for a day. That sounds like you did no meetings, no out of office you know, events that are going to be needing to be a team off for the underwriting team. We're not doing a team offsipe of tea on the one day. No can do Yeah, and you know to the staff's point, Yeah, That's one of the things I love about our culture JOFIC is that we do a debrief after all of these major campaigns or events that we do. There is a debrief where we ask our team what was askful and what...

...was the failure and take that always take that feedback UM into consideration, and then also circle back with them with solutions and or reasons behind not being able to change something. So UM, I really love that about who and what we're trying to do at the Credit Union, which is really open and honest dialogue with each other UM about anything and everything. That all I have left are the three questions I ask everybody at the end of the podcast. Otherwise I think we've got through all all the note I have on my remarkable So i'd let anything you want to say, I can throw those at you. Now throw them at me. See if I can do this all right? Rapid fives. The first one is what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gone? I think, uh, never go it alone, So that the idea that when you're in that chair, it's easy to think that you can make decisions um and not gain support and buy in from my board, from other team members, and that inevitably can lead to a dangerous situation for a CEO or an executive. So never go it alone. I have a lot of people that surround me that helped me when I need to bounce ideas and thoughts and ideas for the future. So I like it. That one was the second question, what's the best piece of advice you've gotten about the general consumer banking consumer finance industry, which is obviously it came in through the hr DO, which I'm curious about, like when you went to a more business oriented, you know, cut product oriented set of roles, Like, what was the advice you got about how the industry works. I think I'd go back to those four CEOs that I worked with Jeff, which UM, it always came back to the members. It always came back to what's the right thing to do for the member owners. And UM, if you can, if you can get on the phone with someone and justify a decision you made in articulate kind of way, those member owners are going to stand behind you. And if they can't, then it's okay for you to say this is not this is probably not the credit union for you, and that I've had to I've had to take that to heart a lot in the decisions that we've made in the four years that I've been the CEO. We made a massive amount of change, including a name change, including opening to to new locations, going to I T M model. So there was a lot that I had to really get comfortable with explaining my reasoning and also get comfortable with numbers that just said not for me. Got it, and I here's my last what is your one? What is one bold prediction about the future. I have an extremely intelligent I T guy that works with me and I worked with in for twenty seven years UM and he and I have really been on a debate about blocked in technology, not specifically cryptocurrency, not not the crypto...

...world necessarily, but just blockchain in general and what it can do, UM for the financial services industry and how we can um make the mortgage titling work easier and better, how we can make even auto titling easier and better, usually in the blockchain and all the teche the opportunities that are out there for how we could use blockchain. UM. It's one of those things that I have to educate myself about all the time because I don't hun to percent always understand it, and so I'm always searching and looking for for other things. But UM, you know, I know the cryptocurrency world I think is very volatile UM and and obviously that that f t x UM demise has been an eye opener for a lot of people. But I don't think that the technology that has supported it is a bad thing. I think it could be utilized for good. And I see that as the future UM that we're all going to have to start figuring out what it is because I think that that could help us all UM long term interesting blockchain non cryptocurrency per se, which is just one instance of what the blockchain is capable of exactly, exactly interesting. I like you well, Charlotte, we'll leave it there. Thanks so much for the take of the time today. I really appreciate it and I really enjoyed the conversation. Yeah, me too, Jeff, Thank you so much. Up Start partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. Up Starts AI lending platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models. With fraud rates near zero, up Starts all digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consu in verse. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto lending programs or you're just getting started, Upstart can help. Upstart offers an end to end solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile. With all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing, and servicing, it's all possible with Upstart in your quarter. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process, and growing your business by visiting upstart dot com slash four dash banks. That's upstart dot com slash four dash banks. You've been listening to Leaders and lending from Upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to Leaders and Lending in your favorite podcast player using Apple Podcasts. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening until next time.

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