Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 64 · 3 months ago

The Importance of Data Access and Reporting During Uncertain Economic Times

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The potential crisis has everyone concerned, but there is also opportunity at junctures like this in the market.

Perry Rahbar, Founder an d Chief Executive Officer of dv01, shares his insights on services that are most valuable during uncertain times. Additionally, Rahbar discusses how the mortgage crisis led him to found a unique FinTech data operation.

Join us as we discuss:

  • How dv01 was born out of the mortgage crisis
  • dv01’s position as a data hub integrating with originators, banks and investors
  • The economic outlook and how this will impact demand for credit
  • Opportunities in solar and auto loans

You're listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry best practices around digital transformation. In more let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders and lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Perry Robart, the CEO and founder of devo one. It's a fascinating conversation. We start with Perry's kind of in tray under the finance world on the mortgage securitization trading desk bear through the financial crisis, the things he learned and really the insight that led to the formation of Deva One and its value, which is lone level data transparency for securitizations or investors and in the markets generally. Kind of fascinating to me that this didn't exist and the liquidity invisibility that is unlocked by this kind of capability. Devo one is built. Where they started, mostly with ntext and the and the unsecured space, and where they're headed really interesting. Conversation. I think it's a fascinating both founder story, origin story for the kind of problem they're trying to stall, business growth story in terms of the timing that things have happened, and then really interesting Parry highlights that in many ways, the times when the service is most valuable as when conditions are an ideal right, things like the covid crisis or some of the economic concertainties that we're facing now, where people are looking for more data and insight and their ability to deliver that. I thought it was really interesting conversation with a player who's got a unique space in the market and can kind of see across originators and looking at a detailed level of data. So please enjoy this conversation with Perry. I'm getting used to interviewing non bankers but it's still new to me. But I love when I ask most bankers how they got into banking, but for someone who's more in the Fintech and Entrepreneur Si tell me a little bit about the history of Devo one kind of where you guys came from, what you saw on the market, why you got into the space. Yeah, I mean I definitely wasn't a banker I was a trader when I started my career right out of college, and clunt that's got a count. I mean worked in an investment bank, but I think the trading floor was the furthest thing from banking. I think the traders are often known as like kind of the you know, the wild animals within the bank that kind of like roamed around a trading floor. You know, it wouldn't be crazy. Bankers are polished. I think of a banker a nice suit tie. You know, you walk on in the trading floor you of people walking around barefoot. It's just a bizarre place. So that's that's where I started my career. At Bear sterns, which was also of all the investment banks, was probably the most ridiculous of all the investment banks. It was kind of smaller culturally. was definitely not like a JP Morgan or or Japan or Jape Morgan or Goldman Sachs, where, you know, it was like this massive diversified business. You know, the department that I work in, mortgage trading, was really like the epicenter of the banks profit.

So I in turned there right out of school, while I was in school, and then we got a fulltime job and you know, it was two thousand and four. So what I didn't realize? It was like the preamble to the the financial crisis and it was like slowly building up and, you know, business got bigger and bigger every year and it just seemed really exciting and you know, I was on the trading desk, trading mortgages, had like a multibillion dollar position as like a twenty three year old, and it was I read these books. I feel like this is a whole separate yeah, cast, but I've read book this, but I read books about it to like coming into it. Liars Poker was definitely, you know, one that got me jacked up about trading and I was like yeah, I could see all this happening as I was reading. I read that as an intern. So, you know, it was it was an awesome place. It was a unique time in history and and then it all blew up and you know, so a lot of what led to Dvo one or these moments in time during my trading career that stand out, as you know, kind of this is ridiculous, this isn't the way that this should happen. You know, the first one of those was was when bear actually went down. I remember is a Friday afternoon. Our stock was getting hammered all week. You know, it was obviously going get like going lower every day. But I think in the on that Friday like closed in the s or something like that, or it was about to close in the S, and you know, I sat next to the rates guys. There were a few rods in front of me and they just got up at one point through their headsets down and you know, said it's over, and like what are you talking about? So like the firm, it's over, it's done. You know, we just got downgraded. So you know they knew because they have all the derivatives, they're facing all the counterparties and there's just no way we were going to be able to post enough margin as a standalone company to kind of meet our new requirements. So they just knew the firm was toast. And like right then the whole floor got up and it kind of turned into a giant going away party. Everyone walked to a bar across the street and it was just like farewells and it was the most bizarre thing to me and and I remember just kind of like thinking, like what is going on? Right now. and and I got an email from from my boss saying hey, I need I need you to come back. So, I mean I was still young and you know, I was in it was like my boss tells me to do something, I go. A lot of other people are older like screw this, he's not my boss anymore. The firms don't stay away. So so I went back and when I went back on the floor I saw people like packing up their their desk. There's boxes already. I didn't even know where the boxes came from. How did people get boxes that fast to pack up stuff on their desk? And you know, he's like we need to find out how much exposure. You know, we have two mortgages which you know at a high level for you know, fortune, one hundred company...

...in a tier one investment bank, you think should be, and your primary focus is mortgage backs. You would be an easy question to answer. You'd go, yeah, open the book, look it. Three Am. We're still they're trying to figure it out. You know, all the systems were spinning out different numbers. Ultimately we had to reconcile everything in a spreadsheet and, and I tell this is a story I tell all new employees at tvo one, because it's a huge like we weren't even asking complicated questions about, hey, what's your exposure to mortgages that are eighty, you know, over ADLTV, you know, have like a high dti or iol like something like that. You would think would identify like course, this market again overheated, whatever it is, just like what's the number? What's the total number that we own? And we couldn't answer it and and it took a long time and you know, I thought that was nuts, I mean absolutely crazy that this wasn't something that, you know, was at that point. No one was looking at loan level data. You know, people were barely doing diligence. So it was just really wild to me. And then there was a few other memories. You know, once the financial crisis, you know, I moved over to JP Morgan. We're now trading all these bonds. People were selling mortgage back securities every day in the billions and you didn't have any information on most of it. You just pulled it up on Bloomberg and you saw a high level what percentage of the pools delinquent, and that's all you know. And it was tough to know what those loans look like? How many other loans in the pool look like that that are most likely going to become delinquent? To you were just kind of like throwing darts out a board and what that would do is would just make you naturally more hesitant and bid lower. And then when you start just bidding lower for the sake of bidding lower, it creates like these negative price, you know, vacuums, and it's just awful for the market because people don't have that transparency. So when I left ultimately and I had an entrepreneur on witch, I wanted to do something new. Kind of coincided when, you know, when when companies like upstart came about and and the whole fintech movement and consumer lending came about, and just an opportunity to build this new infrastructure for these markets, start with, you know, the fintech lenders and then eventually scale it to the more, you know, more status quo or nonfin tech originators or market systems like mortgages, autos and so forth, and so that's kind of how we got here and we've been pretty true to that model since. So, for those who are less familiar with devial as a fascinating we're just here. Tell us a little bit what you do, just so we could put the rest of this conversation in contact, like what what is the course of of people you work with and where the service? Yeah, I mean you could think of us as this data hub in the middle of the market, were integrated with all the originators, all the banks, all the investors, and we do everything. We do all the data reporting and analytics, which covers, you know, you know all the market day that you know some large market data...

...sets could be people specific portfolios or with something that's been a big focus of hours and kind of a passion of mind is enhancing transparency within securitization specifically, and so that means that all the data flows into Devo one. We cleanse, normalize, validate it and we've built all the tools for both reporting and analytics that anyone in the ecosystem would need on top of that data, and it's a really just makes it a seamless process. That sounds like, okay, what's the big deal about that? But when you look at how some of these markets operated previously and and how many different vendors or internal you know stakeholders would be involved in that. And how? You know, even data for the same asset class across different counterparties always looks different. Sometimes data from the same counterparty on different portfolios looks different. So there's no good reason for any of that. But, you know, our belief was always if we make this easier and more transparent, it leads to more liquidity in these markets, bigger pool of investors, more liquidity, more investors, means lower rates. It's so, you know, and and helps these markets operate more efficiently, which is the opposite of what we saw happen, you know, during the crisis. Yeah, so let me see which markets are assets are you in today? Primarily, what what kind of assets are you having information, you know, Innernet of the system and then viable to the investors side for today is it? Is it center around one kind of loaning plan, product or circutization to category or as a broader like where you guys plan? Yeah, I mean we focused on everything consumer, any loan that touches a consumer, you know, because at the end of the day we felt like, you know, that impact would ultimately kind of flow back to the consumer in some way and and you know, all these loans that are consumer related kind of function in a similar fashion. Right there is information about the consumer and then potentially about an asset, if there is one. That's all relevant to understanding and evaluating these loans and securities. So I'd say our core has always been consumer unsecured which, you know, is is where the Fintech movement started with. But since then we've touched student both in school refies, autos. Mortgages probably our second biggest market, you know, and that's a market that's grown a lot over the last few years. The non agency mortgage market, or private label mortgage markets probably a better way to describe it. And then there's new emerging asset classes that are that are interesting to us, like solar, single family reserve rentals has grown a lot. So it's something that we're not currently involved in but will probably, you know, start to dip our toes into soon. So you know, it's these are massive markets and we're talking about, you know, hundreds of billions of year a year and issuance across all of them and we're still in the you know, small like, you know, maybe double digit coverage or single digit coverage of them. So there's still so much more for us to do. So let me I I'm...

...very curious in this was none of my original questions list, but you talk about how obvious an idea it seems, how simple of a concept it seems on a certain level. And yet, and yet it wasn't being done. To your point, like, and I watched the big short and not that that's exactly what you're talking about, but like, kind of like nobody knew it was in the was in these deals that they were buying. It's like, except for one or two guys who like downloaded something in paper and we're looking through the stuff. Why had no one? Why was this not a thing that existed in the market? It seems so obvious, like people are buying and selling assets of a similar kind on a daily basis. There, you know, the kept Bloomberg exists for certain kinds of information. Why wasn't there something out there that made this an easy thing to do? I would maybe don't be care but I would think that if I were buying a lot of these things, I would want to know, like what's in this thing I just bought? And how do I think about comparing one securitization versus another? Based on the actual quality, not just a performance, but of like some number of criteria of the loans within there, where I could look at who's doing a good job underwriting and who's not. I need the loan level data to do that and that would seem like an obvious thing. And yet it's not there, and I'm curious if you have a perspective as to as to why. Yeah, I mean there's there's multiple versions that that are different layers to that answer. I would say one just culturally in finance there is just a natural and this is why, I think when when the the fintech lenders came about, who really approached this more from a technology standpoint and technology and culture, there was an opening to make this different as because they believed in transparency and more information the better, more data the better. In finance it's the actual it's the opposite, like the finance culture is, the less that we have to give the better, because there's only downside, right, and and that's how, you know, people think about it. In these markets. The pendulum always swings where sometimes the you know, the seller of assets has more leverage, other times the buyer of assets have more leverage, and you know, you would have thought that after the financial crisis that would have changed significantly, but, you know, in Fintech we kind of and it's shocking, because the company was earlier stage, which is usually tougher to kind of evangelize, but we had a way easier to time, you know, selling this value prop to the Fintech originators and then when we tackled it in mortgages, now as a more established company with a proven, you know, business model and like a live product that's being used, there's still a lot of resistance to it because it's like, you know what, if I give this information out there and it's used against me, which is, by the way, never happened. There's never been a point in our history where some issuer or originator has come to us and said Hey, you know, because of all the transparency you gave investors, they're now grilling us about this and it's become a like that's never actually happen. We've only enhanced their businesses and still it's something that's tough for people to understand. Back then, though, I think the big argument for like why? Because oftentimes people think of, you know, the financial crisis is if a bunch of evil people got...

...on the room and they say this is how we're going to tank the whole economy. But it was really we were the dumbest ones, really right, like when people like, Oh, you're part of it, it's like bear sterns lost the most. You know, Lehman lost the most. When we were you know, it wasn't like we were the smartist. You know, I think there was just this view that this asset was when you have thousands of loans coming from across the country and people thought of housing as a localized, you know, supply, that demand, you know, kind of economics behind it. They thought that it was safe and hence, with credit enhancement, you could get away with all this. But no one expected the correlation of the housing market to be won. And that's what kind of you know, yeah, because you know, the fin the finance component of it nationalized housing in a way, and and all these big funds and how they were able to get leverage and so forth. So that was like the historical and then, you know, the the the thing that we still go up against is just finance culture. And you know, there's still some consumer originators out there that won't let loan level data leave the premise and and I think you know it's frustrating, but I think, I think that it's only a matter of time, right, like, if you're going to pick, which direction is this going in? More data or less data? I put my money on more data. Yeah, well, I just I'm buying if I'm buying a thing, knowing what the thing is seeming. I mean, at the core the thing is the loans, right. It's the mean to would really charge the risk of the securitization of portfolio afford anything? You've got to know. I think I wouldn't ask you this. You talked about starting with the fintex or kind of maybe the the luck of kind of starting the company the same time that a bunch of fintech lenders who also started who had maybe a similar mindset. Are there other ways in which you find the fintech players in the market to be different or to think differently in interesting ways, and the more traditional banks, like how are they different as customers, as partners? Do you just I'm curious what your perspective is on how that the difference between those two kind of categories of player in the space? Yeah, I mean I think they're just thinking about it in a very proactive way, very hands on and getting in front of things and and appreciating quick feedback loops. You know, I think covid was probably the best demonstration of that. When, when you know, when everything started in March, this is always a consumer unsecurity is always alone that for the longest time. Yeah, I heard was exactly the tip of this beer and if you know, you, quote unquote, Shit hit the fan, that would be the first thing to go. Is that what I always heard when I when I talk to like my old finance friends, and it took a long time for it to be kind of evangelized within the broader capital markets and really get, you know, the money manager audience and so forth. So when covid hit, everyone thought those loans were going to go really quickly and and and again. That's the thing, right in absence of information and transparency, people will assume the worst and,...

...you know, sell and and that would have been bad news and a lot of people could have easily gone out of business. And then the counterintuitive thing happened, which was with the stimulus money, people actually kept paying their loans and we saw how quickly the FINTECH segment modified loans meet it very clear and also worked with US across you know, hey, how's everyone else doing it? Let's get sanchronized, because it's good for the industry and, you know, consistent logic, and we were able to implement it and people and we're also getting dated daily, which is something that doesn't happen in other markets. So we were able to put out these reports and really show what is happening. Every two weeks, a fresh a refresh of what is happening. And I think for many reasons that market, I mean one, you know, is down maybe two weeks and then never turn back. Versus you look at the mortgage world, I mean there was carnage and mortgages for, you know, most of twenty twenty and you know, people still never really got a good handle because there's it's such a distributed ecosystem in so many stakeholders. So it's really tough to have this like market consensus and think for the best of the market their services. There's originators, there's aggregators, they're securitizers, it's there's it's just a really tough ecosystem. So when you look at how efficient the Fintech guys are and you could go to five different counterparties and get some sort of consensus and do things pretty quickly, and then it could be deployed internally pretty quickly, which is the other thing. Right, you know, try to go to a mortgage service or and ask them like Hey, can you add this field or can you change how this feels done? I mean, forget about it. That's that's like that might happen within you. Yeah, I remember looking at this data very carefully during you know, we were using this a lot with our partners, bar investors, because they were saying, well, what's happening? We know what's happening to you. What's happening in the broader market? What's going on? How are you performing versus the broader market? Are you better, worse? Is everybody kind of the same in terms of stress and the ability to look at impairments across the industry, and I think that was kind of the term we all came up with. It was like not not you know, either in a hardship or late, roughly speaking, but not making on time payments was a hugely valuable thing, and to have it in real time, where we could. I was sending had a weekly email to all of our partners and that was like, that was that day. It was at the core of a lot of the analysis we're doing about where the market was at. So that was amazing to how the speed was able to make it fastard to learn it, to your point, for the market to respond to go hey, things don't look like they're as bad as we thought they might be. Maybe, maybe it's such a bad idea to be in this, to still be in the space. Yeah, I mean that was I got to tell you. I think in looking back, I mean we're in our AFEAR. October will be eight years. I'd say that's probably one of the most fulfilling periods, which is shocking, because there was also a moment where I thought the future of the business was the most in peril, imperiled, because securities nations is stopped and and you know that's a base, you know, source of our our growth. But...

...it was the most fulfilling because that, that moment was exactly what we started this company for and and what the vision was about was, in moments like that, giving people confidence instead of having them retreat and fear and listen it confidence in it being bad is just as good, right. Like, I mean, I think again, if people understand what is actually happening, good or bad, that's extremely important and they could adjust accordingly. It's when people are blindsided or or just way out of touch with reality in a negative way where it could cause rec havoc in the markets. And so that was a that was great to see and I think, like you know, the whole community came together and figure that out and it was just so unique how different it was in the consumer space for us and for investors, versus what it was in the mortgage space, where people really didn't have answers and couldn't really understand it, and it took a lot longer for that market to kind of come back. And then, you know, obviously the tide was so strong with with stimulus and rates and so forth that it just I don't think anyone actually got answers. They just moved on. And you know, let me ask you that question because I think we're recording this and you know, early June, so we will have to make this more timely in our production. But it's a really interesting moment to ask what's happening. So I think there is a sense that there was a really big shock. It was offset by stimulus and at least I'll talk most about consumer loans here. We kind of like we rode through six of the maybe best months ever from a performance point of view on the tail end of what looked like a pretty scary time. But as stimulus is withdrawn, inflation is gone up, supply chain is tightened, there's concerns that the you know, the Piper's got to collect his do you know what's your what's your sense of what the go for is, because I think people are definitely looking at some degree of it, least the good times that we had of it last six months that were unnaturally good in many ways because of government intervention, and they do you have a perspective on where you think? I want to ask you put your crystal ball and put it the future. But where we're at from that performance point of view, and that categories it, is something I get asked a lot. And like, you know, how much are we going to revert to, you know, pre pre two thousand and twenty norm something in between, like what what does the credit risk environment look like moving forward, and what are we seeing in the portfolio, because it's a it's this interesting moment when the stimulus is going away, inflation is going up on some of the things that have been sustaining the really good performance or or maybe not going to be here for the future. Yeah, I mean, you know, this is the thing. That's when you're kind of in these phases where there's a lot of uncertainty. It's tough to know what's really driving what, and and is particularly in consumer loans because, again, tip of this beer. But I would say we're we're exiting a period that was very unnatural, right, the amount of stimulus that was pumped into the system. So if your baseline is the last two years,...

...well, of course it's only going to get worse, right, like it's just you. And I think here's oftentimes people look at stuff and they're like, oh, delinquencies are ticking up. Well, of course, I mean they were too low. sanely love, they were crazy. Yeah, it was like a lot of people would say they were definitely too low and they should have been higher, and I would agree with that too. So I think also the other thing is, you know, in these environments, right, so, credits so good oftentimes, and you know, originators then start opening up the box a little bit and stretching. So is it really when you have this uptick in delinquencies? Is it because the guy, the the the people that you were lending to previously got worse? Or you expand it to the fringes a little bit? So naturally it's going to you're going to have higher risk associated with that. So I think like that's kind of what we're seeing as a little bit of mix of both of those things. Obviously, the environments not what it was the last years, but I do think people are sitting on record savings and you know, I think you know, on the other side of the table, a lot of our partners on the origination side kind of expanded the box a little bit and that's the first stuff that you'll start to see go go bad. But is it going to be a wave? I think that's probably not in the cards. I think if anything, you know, and you could answer this question better than I can. I know there's a lot of volatility out there, but ultimately, if we get into this system where, you know, higher inflation and savings start to come down, there might be more demand for credit. I think we've also been in this period where, because everyone was so flushed with cash. It'son insanely low period of demand for credit and hence why there was this need to kind of expand out. Maybe that's what's flowing through. So maybe, you know, originators like upstart could start going back to the customer that had too much cash and giving them credit, and that's probably someone that they'd feel feel better about than the person that they I mean, I think there's your right. There reasons to be nervous, right, there's also reasons to think, Hey, credit is going to be more in need. You know, we often get asked about rising rates and what they do, and I get will. A lot of consumer insecurity is refinancing of Credit Card Tet which is almost all at floating rates. So like, yeah, your rates probably have to go up. Is rates go up, but but so does the alternative that the consumers face agains. What does that like? The cost that they're looking at on their current borrowing? So maybe the value of refly goes. It's hard to say. We haven't. You know, people asked us what inflation does to credit risk and I said, well, you know, give it that. Our data is like fifteen years old. We don't have any good data on that. You know, we don't. Over the last period of years, you don't. You don't have a lot of experience with inflation where it's at. So it's there's a lot of unknowns, but I think it's a lot of reasons to be positive. And we don't see you know, well, I guess Jamie diamonds, he's a hurricane on the horizon, but we see something a little more mild in terms of the correction. Yeah, and I would imagine, you know, my if I had to bet on it, I wouldn't you know, I would think that there is more there's more demand for your types of loans for the for the remainder of the year, which is something that you know, is ultimately great for us...

...as well and and I think you know for us, I think the sweet spot for us, where our business excels is where, if there's enough uncertainty, where people actually have to pay attention to that what's happening in the underlying collateral and the loans, but not too much where it just shuts down the markets. And I think that's kind of you know, once we do settle in this kind of in a rate range, and I think people feel comfortable making decisions again, and you know, the tenure note isn't moving like a tech sock. I think, you know, we could get back to some sort of business as usual and then I think would be an interesting environment where they'll probably be a lot of different views. We haven't had that in a while. No, it'll definitely be the interesting. So what's next for deval one? Like we're we're is there a future you guys are looking for, that you want to build? Most entrepreneurs have some vision of where they're headed or what they want to get to next. What's on the Road Map for you guys? I mean for us it's it doesn't actually involve a ton of new products. It's constantly pushing to get more data on the platform. It's bringing on a lot of new new partners. When we look at kind of our our securitization business, which is basically what we did there, as we came up with a new role within a securitization itself called a loan data agent, and so you know the way it used to work is there was either no data available or there is market data sets that were, you know, sold or posted by different institutions, and so everyone had to do all this stuff to get it together, but in a lot of asset classes there just wasn't data available. So, you know, our goal is to get all these issuers to start including a loan data agent on their deals and it really streamlines how investors and even the originators themselves. Oftentimes it's funny. They think they're doing it for investors and then they become the biggest power users of the platform and get the most value from it, which is always, I think, great for us to see. But we, I mean, like I said earlier, we've barely scratched the surface of penetrating these markets. You know, even in our best market, consumer, there we still only have, of all consumer unsecured maybe seventy percent of securitizations on our platform. There's a few big issuers that are not necessarily considered fintech issuers which aren't on the platform yet. You know, in mortgages we're even lower. Solar is another one that's upandcoming. Autos it's another one that we want to penetrate further into. So in our mind we still have a lot of work to do, and and a lot of that in terms of what it means for us and product is if it is just enhancing the infrastructure to make it easier to take in this data, adding some new schemas to the system, adding new features on the other side to make it more powerful for investors. But you know, the securitization market is really the heart of what we do. We also build a lot of other tools and cell data sets, but there's so much data in these markets that's still out there that's not on our platform and that's kind of what we're looking towards to really, you know, get all the data...

...on at all true platform models. That's what makes the platform or valuable right all to all parties play. I wanted to, before I get to my closing three questions, ask fallow on something you mentioned earlier than I made a note of, which is kind of like the belief, in part of the driving motivation for what you're doing that transparency in the market and open data would lead to better outcomes accessibility of credit for consumers. That kind of focus on driving some consumer good and I'm curious how you think about maintaining a focus on that for your team. I mean that's it's hard. I find that many financial institutions, even for people running consumer learning. Businesses can find it hard because you start to look at portfolio level and you forget the people behind the numbers. But I imagine for you guys, you're you're step to remove from that originator in terms of your place in the value chain. And and I don't disagree necessarily that better efficient, more efficient, better functioning markets end up enabling better offers for consumers at the end of the day. That's definitely true. But it can be hard to connect the dots for your typical Devo, one employee between what you're doing and how that actually impacts consumers at the end of the day. And I'm curious how you think about, from a cultural point of view, you know, making that connection and driving that focus on, saying they we're not just here to like move some numbers around and make some money, but we're here to actually make this market more efficient because it's good for the American economy the American consumer. How do you think about maintaining that focus and helping people connect what they're doing to that that greater mission? Yeah, I mean it's definitely tough, right I I don't try to like pump it as if every day it's that's that's what's going on to some people. I think there's we are a few steps removed, but I think there's these moments in time where it's really clear and and and you know, the covid examples one. I think we're getting into another one right now where, you know, I know for for for example, you know, listening to earnings of a lot of the consumer originators. You know, in terms of your future output for the year, it's not as much, you know, can we originate loans to investors? There are borrowers, there's a lot of demand for that. It's can we sell it all to the capital markets? And, you know, not knowing what kind of environment we are in the capital markets. And so I think it's specifically during these types of times. And we also do, you know, kind of you know, kind of panels as well, and we invite some guests and investors and so forth in a lot of and it's really shows the team kind of how there is a lot of uncertainty and how the data that really does play into shaping views and coming up with decisions. We also get a lot of feedback from investors when we're putting out content like the covid reports specifically were huge. A few people on our team were really behind behind that and like this really helps. Thank you. So you have these moments in time and, you know, I think the other thing that employees on our path in our company realize sometimes you could get like a bit desensitized to it and then you realize, wow, these are massive sums of money that were, you know, kind of dealing with here right you know, there's deals that securtizations that are being done.

You know, we've had some deals that are over two billion. We have some clients on the platform that, you know, are bringing over, you know, five to ten billion of loans that they own onto the platform and we're critical part of that. And you know, behind all of that are loans that are taken out by people. And if they're not able to, I think people who've been at the company long enough for or able to see, if they're not able to get a good enough handle on, you know, what it is they own and how they look at this risk, then there they might not make those decisions, you know, on and that's way easier to kind of show to the team in moments like this versus, you know, I'd say pre covid it was a pretty strong bull market and and you know, I think we've done a lot in a bull market, which is actually the most impressive, you know, for us. This is the time to really, you know, continue to grow the penetration percentages because this is where the value prop is the strongest. But in good times it's really tough to it's harder to make that kind of connection. That's true. I like it. So I've got three questions. I used to close a podcast everybody, so here they are for you, Perry. Number One, what's the best piece superior advice you've ever done? You know, it's kind of it's not. It's nothing unique, but it's don't get locked in on the outcome and really enjoy the process. And I think as an entrepreneur you could always think, like you get lost in where's this all going to end? How's it going to play out? And you know, and and when you look back, you know, I think, what are the the craziest, like entrepreneur hacks I give other founders is download time hot on your phone, which is I don't know if you've heard of it. It's an APP that just shows you every day pictures from this day, one year or two your three year. You know, however many years ago, and and I get these reminders every day of where we were at like seven years ago, and it was just a bunch of diagrams on a white board and it's a great reminder of one how fun that was, but how absolutely terrifying of the time it was and and really just enjoy it and and these things end up working themselves. Yeah, the other the other thing that I'm always reminded because our CEO and I are both bad on the celebration. Like we told we focus on what's next and we've got certain members are like hey, yeah, we used that back, take a moment and like just recognize what we just did, celebrate, make sure the team like kind of feels that moment. And I'm always appreciative because my inclination is just like no, no, we finished that when I got to worry about the next one. And when you're entrepreneur there's always a next one that's, you know, equally big and terrifying and exciting, and it's important to to kind of mark the moments a little. I've gotten that feedback a few times myself, and so I you know, since for shore I've been called out on that. So I'm always grateful I've got a team member one or typical. Who Was it? Jeff, we got it. I thank you for doing that for me, because it would not be me and I know, I know it's probably a pretty important for the group. Second, what's the what's the best piece of advice you've gotten? This would be interesting one for you about the consumer lending space in general, like what's an insight you've gleaned from your time and looking at it broadly...

...across the across the market? I feel like I've been the one that's had to give out advice on it because because everyone comes to me, you know, and as ask questions about it since, you know, they think we have all these as it like you give, you know, I early days. I think it was just that there was a lot of people that were so skeptical of it, you know, and and there was just people who are like, who are these people who are taking out these loans over the Internet, and I'm like, what do you know, like as if it's all fraud and they were review and it's funny, these are the same people who, you know, bought all the worst stuff during the financial crisis. Or originated all the worst stuff. So, you know, it was just about taking this as ad class seriously and taking these originators seriously. I think a lot of people early days at especially from the finance community, just thought that these were tech people didn't really understand the markets. And, you know, to some degree there was some truth to that. I think there was this belief it could truly be a peer to peer system and you know, there's just no way that was ever going to scale. And you know, they figured it out and it's kind of just like, you know, the same entrepreneur advice. You just keep going and you figure it out right and and and now I don't think anyone has those doubts about this market, for sure. Very thanks for making the time. I appreciate your being here, of course. Thanks thanks for having me on. Up Start Partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan port folios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. US. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does to upstarts. Ai Landing Platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models. With fraud rates near zero. Upstarts all digital experience, reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto learning programs or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Upstart offers an into ind solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile. With all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing and servicing, it's all possible. Upstart in your corner. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting UPSTARTCOM Ford Banks. That's UPSTARTCOM FORWARD DA banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player, using apple podcast. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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