Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 63 · 5 months ago

The Paradigm Shift in Payments: Modernization in Card Issuing and Processing

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

How can lenders create a differentiated transaction experience for their borrowers with such a technically simple integration?

Randy Kern, Chief Technology Officer at Marqeta, discusses how they are disrupting the payments industry with transaction-based decisioning and buy-now-pay-later, and how lenders can work to optimize both internal processes as well as the borrower experience. 

Join us as we discuss:

  • Building more visibility between borrowers and their finances
  • Moving the credit decision to the transaction level
  • The growing focus on risk products and capabilities
  • The evolution of BNPL
  • Fighting fraud while maintaining a best-in-class borrower experience

You're listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry best practices around digital transformation. In more let's get into the show. Hi and welcome to leaders and lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Randy Kern, the chief technology officer at Marquetta. That's really interesting conversation because Marquetta has really built automation API rails on top of current payment and credit card rails and they're really enabling new kinds of capabilities like just in time decisioning, by now, pay later, all built on the existing payment networks, which I think is a really interesting way to layer innovation on top of existing foundation of technology. We really dive into the new kinds of experiences that are being built on top of those technologies. The increasing focus on more risk products and risk capabilities. How do we look at risk? And I thought the really interesting thing Randy said was really shifting from account based decisioning and monitoring to transaction base, where you're really moving your unit of account, if you will, from an account that you have with a customer to the transaction that's happening. Was a really interesting paradigm shift and a different way to think about credit lending, especially in the transaction space. I think a really interesting conversation for anybody looking at the future of payments, credit commerce. It's really interesting. I think you can learn a lot from this. So please enjoy this conversation with Randy Kern. Randy, welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining me today. Jeff, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Yeah, I was looking through my records and I first talked to Marquetta, I think, two thousand and sixteen before, before you even join. So you know I got a lot of history with the company. But I think if you guys is sitting at kind of the forefront of the the modern card issuing experience and kind of building on top of the card network interesting rails and experiences in capability to tell me a little bit about how you think about what it was you were trying to build in the card issuing space, what the problem was or the opportunities that you guys see in that area. Yeah, Jeff, that that that's a great question and I have to say, you know, I haven't even hit my one year anniversary with Marquette yet, although it's coming up soon in June, so I feel like I should be asking you the questions, frankly, if you've been around us since two thousand and sixteen. I'll give you my view on modern card issuing, though, and, frankly, what excites me so much about Marquetta and working with our customers and their customers on a daily business. You know, the basic idea here is to bring modern technology components, you know, things like open Apis and web books and all the sort of current generation technology approach to this space of card transactions and card payments and allowing disruptors and innovators in...

...the space to think up new and fascinating ways to allow consumers and commercial entities to use cards in their daily business or their daily lives in ways that they simply couldn't before. You know, so much of our so much of the technology history in this space is fairly monolithic and certainly not very easily composable and very hard to change, and so the idea of modern card issuing and processing is to produce that kind of composable, modular world where you could bring your special idea, your disruptive bit, to that overall network, that overall ecosystem, leverage the payment rails and it bring a really disruptive, really new experience to your customers. Can I ask what are some of the interesting disruptive experiences, disruptive bits that you see your customers bringing, because it's some of us, I think, can have this natural unconnections to the cards. Are Like cards and I'm always fascinated by some of the new payment tech because I feel like cards have worked pretty well, like I take my card swipes everywhere. It works. But you guys are really leveraging this. Are Your customers, I'll say, are leveraging this for different types of experiences. Maybe dive in this some examples of what that can look like are where that innovation and disruption kind of experience has happen to make that a little bit more real for the audience. Yeah, you know, I think there's a big range there and it's a maintance sometimes how even fairly simple innovation feels very different as a consumer. You know the the fact that I can see cash at transactions on my cell phone, you know, basically in real time. It it doesn't revolutionize the industry. It didn't take a massive amount of engineering. You know, it's a relatively straightforward integration with the MARQUETTA platform, but it's a really different consumer experience. Rather than waiting for your statement to show up and kind of looking back and going, Oh yeah, what was that? You know, it just allows you as a consumer to feel much, much, much more connected to what's kind of going on with your card and going on with your finances. And you know, I would argue that that's a relatively simple at least from a technology standpoint. There's complexity and scale and compliance and everything else to do a program at that kind of scale and reach. But even with that sort of simple integration, technically simple integration Peru, this is a markedly different experience for the card holder. You know, we have other customers kind of at the other end of the spectrum right they're thinking about how do you bind the the sort of credit determination into the transaction flow? You know, this is leading to buy now, pay later, and a bunch of folks in this space, Klarna after pay, a firm as examples of our customers who really provide a very, very different experience for the consumer at the point of sale. No longer do you have to have this sort of big arduous credit line process that's now detached from actually make it to purchase or kind of...

...using your line of credit daytoday. Now these are kind of connected in ways through that dynamic environment, through the kind of real time nature of modern card issuing in processing, the ways they never could be before. And the last thing I'll highlight is there's really interesting ways to do very real time and very dynamic either funding sources, you know, looking at Crypto as a source of funding, or Crypto as a kind of indicator of credit worthiness or kind of funds to cover and what goet rewards as well. You know, the fact that there's a real time API and a real time interaction with the Card Network, the the point of sale marquette is the issuer processor and and are direct customer. It just allows so much more innovation in terms of how you want to track and reward and manage this entire experience. Yeah, it's really interesting. You know, you talked about some of those innovations are really consumer benefit right, like the seeing transactions in real time or being able to get the credit product at the time of sale, detached for maybe a prior credit decision, and some of those are really lender oriented right real time credit decisioning at a transaction basis. Do you see any interesting split between the kind of innovations that are more trying to improve the consumer experience and those that are a little bit more like optimizing the the lender side economics or risk management or anything else? That feels like two different kind of different utilization of the teche of the same kind of technology but for very different purposes. It's your great point, chef. You know, I kind of have a basic philosophy that if you can find an optimization, if you can find an improvement in one part of your sort of product ecosystem or business ecosystem, you can generally find ways to bring those benefits and improvements to the other stakeholders, the other constituents as well. So yes, you know, I think fundamentally there's sort of a core avenue of innovation, a core set of disruptive technology here that unlocks a lot of value and a lot of creativity, some of which is going to be more focused on the lender side on the business side. Something to be more focused on the consumer side. But I think at the end of the day, the more you can improve the consumer experience, the more you can improve the business experience. It sort of gives you the freedom to do more and more on both sides. You know, the better your consumer experience, the the the more folks are going to come along in that journey with you, the more excited they are about the product, the more scale and and kind of success you'll have in the business. Conversely, of course, the more efficient and economically viable you make the business, the more interesting things you can do for consumers, and so I think there's a really nice virtuous cycle here in the entire ecosystem that allows us to kind of progress the underlying technology bring this kind of innovation to market and frankly, I think it helps every every constituent over time. Yeah, that's a good point. Is Easy to kind...

...of think of those two things as being an opposition, but really, when you can make the product better for a leander you can generally better serve consumers and vice versus. That's a that's a really good point. I'm curious you guys are. It's interesting the the place that you said, in the approach you took, because I know some payments companies and I'm not I'm more in the landing side of the world than in the payment side. But if really focused on, you know, kind of going around the card rails and kind of trying to build a new network or at least kind of subvert the the cost of using the credit card rails, and you guys really built, I think are enabled to be build lots of innovations on top of the rails. You know, do you do you think that there's a reason or do you think people are mistake in the sense that the rails are part of the problem, because they feel like a pretty robust thing? But I'm kind of curious your take on that, because there is this different set of companies that feel like they're you know, their goal is to kind of build a payment experience. It's maybe not enabled by the current rails and it feels like you guys are just are layering on top with new capabilities. You know, I think it's amazing what you can do with existing payment rails and you know they've taken a long, long, long period of investment of hardening you know the it's a it's a complex space and, frankly, they work very, very, very well. You know our our origin are founder, Jason Gardner, started a company about twelve years ago and the idea was putting sort of consumer group on coupons on the word card and and that's about as far afield of a normal sort of credit card or debit card payment scenarios you could imagine. And yet, by bringing the kind of concepts of modern card issuing and processing so as they were able to have this sort of much more modular, much more extensible, much more disruptive sort of brain if you will, leveraging the existing payment network and all the reach and all the scale and all the kind of security of that brings. You kind of get the best of both worlds. Well, I think of the same thing when you think about your examples of by now pay later companies or crypto companies, both of what you're often seen as challenges to the credit cards or the existing payment rails infrastructure. And yet you have customers leveraging, you know, the current payment rails and your technology stack to enable crypto rewards, real time Fiat conversions. You know, by now pay later type products, at the point of sale without subverting the rails, which is really interesting because some people view those as challengers to the current payments infrastructure and card networks and in some ways they can just be built on top of them instead. Yeah, and you know that that layered approach really allows you to sort of bootstrap innovation and disruption in the space without doing such a massive lift is to kind of, you know, go out and rebuild the whole network. You know, I really like that ability to bring innovation to a market, to bring innovation to an ecosystem. You know, ecosystems are powerful because they sort of let you as an innovator, as a as...

...a disruptor, as a founder, they really let you kind of think about here's the special thing I want to do, but get the leverage of everyone else in that ecosystem. And if you're you know, remit or, your gambit is to sort of say, nope, we're going to start from ground zero and build the entire thing. There's a lot of heavy lifting in there. That really is it differentiated it, at least early in that business. You know, maybe far down the road it might be, but early on, you know, the ability to leverage that whole network, all of the merchants, all of the the network globally, everything that those payment rails bring you, and yet still give you huge freedom in how you innovate and in how you produce very different experiences, whether it's for the lender, whether it's for the consumer, you know, and how you or the business kind of maybe at the middle even how you stitch all this together. You could do that leveraging the rest of that ecosystem and get a really iterate much, much, much more quickly, get a sense of product market fit and, frankly, grow to grow a really compelling business very, very quickly. We MARQUETTA. We did a user study late last year. We interviewed three thousand five hundred adults in the US, the UK, at Australia, and I think it even at that point over fifty percent, I think it's about fifty one percent of adults had used by now pay later, at least one in the previous year. I don't think you could have created that level of reach if you started out building the entire stack from scratch. Yeah, yeah, it's it maybe one of those we were joking before we started recording that, you know, kind of both came from the technology as. Maybe I've been in Fintach long enough that I'm have to call offense at guy, but the entire history of the technology industry is really built on this kind of layered innovation where, you know, very rarely do you see somebody break everything down. Google's like on occasion try to go back to bear metal with some of the oases, but even then it's like really built on years of foundational capabilities that you don't rethink because you want to focus on the thing that you can do new and the kind of almost the less far down the stack you have to start, the the more quickly you can innovate, which is a very different approach. I think that that many industries would understand how much of that innovation is really layered on top of historical technology and just, you know, really robust layers of historical build that there is as your foundation and makes it much easier to start moving on the stuff that's newing different. It's a really good point, Jeff. Yeah, the the technology industry we really like to take advantage of what's come before and you know those areas are innovated and iterated and changed as well. But the great thing about our industry and kind of the basic approach and tech is as much as possible we loosely couple those things. So those case that the the sort of rate of change and innovation. You know, the overall system can change at a very, very quick pace, even...

...if each individual piece is sort of working it. It's more appropriate cadence. It's harder to do if you're building a car. It is harder to do if you're building a cart's one of the beauties of pure software that you can really have those interfaces and innovate dynamically in the different layers. I want to jump and talk a little bit about risk. I mean, my understanding is you guys are starting to look at kind of analysis of risk in new ways and how you can get smart. This is, of course, near and dear to our heart and up start the belief that, you know, most risk decisions are under optimized, maybe a super techy way of saying it, but that there's a lot of room for improvement and understanding of risk and therefore you know both, as we kind of said earlier, benefits the lender in terms of economics and returns and also benefits the consumers in terms of hey, if lots of people are more credit worthy than I thought, I can lower rates, I can expand limits, I can I can approve people who aren't there. What are you seeing that are interesting? Innovations are or where your customers leading you in terms of things that they're interested in proving from a risk analysis point of view? It's a great point, Jeff, and I think this is another example where, you know, by making half of the business more efficient, you know in this case more focused on the lenders, on managing risk, on their exposure, you actually make a better consumer experience. To write. It enables something that otherwise wouldn't be possible and you know, personally I love those sort of closed loop or full system improvements that they're just super rewarding. So, Marqueta, we recently launched a suite of products actually call risk control, and it's built up of for separate products, all designed to help our customers kind of improve their fraud management and really manage their risk in the end. So the key, the kind of core central piece of this is around real time decisioning. So this is a tool that allows our customers to do very fine grained, very fine tuned choices and kind of set up their rules and plan for how they're going to manage risk for a given transaction. Then behind that are good to a great tools around your customer, Kyc, to enable lenders to kind of build and automate and improve their experience of how quickly and efficiently and effectively and correctly they can choose to make credit determinations. Once again back in the kind of transaction flow dsecure very important tool. So that's a suite use by a bunch of our customers and the user experience of that when it first came out, I remember as a customer going what is this? This is all kind of rough and jk and it's really annoying whatever three dcent here POPs up. The experience today is fundamentally different and as a consumer it's much, much, much smoother and every time I come across that, every time that that that experience POPs up, I'm actually very happy because it makes me feel much safer kind of using my card out in the world and on the Internet today. And then the fourth piece of the risk control suite is really rent disputes and chargebacks, and so this is a...

...the data and the tool and everything such a lit a lender can have a very efficient and effective and compliant organization in place to manage that entire part of the cardholder experience. Well, I would let's dive in at least one or two of these. The the real time decision is really fascinating to me because you're talking about, I think, to a traditional banker, a pretty dramatic shift and the way they think about managing risk. I mean most most credit card issuers, if you're not the one of the two or three really big guys, think about issuing a line and then maybe on a monthly or quarterly basis you look at clies or clds, but you're really not underwriting at the transaction level. You're underwriting at the kind of line of credit personal level and you're talking about really moving the credit decision to individual transaction level, which is a mean it may be a small thing, but it's a total paradigm shift and how you think about risk management and how you're approaching it. To talk a little bit about what what you guys are enabling or what you're seeing happening there, because that's it's a really interesting shift to go to actually underwriting like individual transactions versus saying, Hey, here's Jeff, we gave them twenty thousand on the card or five thousand on the card and, like now, we hope that in the month will find out if we were right or wrong and if we want to like, you know, keep his loyalty by increasing it or Limitar rispect decasy. This is like it's a very different approach in terms of what you're thinking about as the fundamental unit of underwriting. I look at this evolution the same as modern card issuing a processing right. It's the idea of shifting from the card and the credit line line and the account and all these, you know, relatively static things. We're kind of shifting the focus, shifting the the determinations, shifting the logic that, shifting the processing down to that transaction level. And so, whether it's about credit wordy credit worthiness, whether it's about merch at risk, kind of you name it, right, being able to provide that kind of intelligence, that kind of computation, the the sort of focus really at that exact individual transaction level, I think it's very, very powerful and, frankly, while we've seen a lot of disruption over the last several years from this, I think there's a lot more to come. So, in the case of real time decisioning, to basically a tool that allows our customers and our partners to decide in advance what's important about the transaction and for a particular cohort, what matters. How are you going to make that determination? You might have different rules for different kinds of merchants, might have different rules through different geographies on the sort of tooling and capability and then, frankly, all of the data behind the scenes to understand that, to build that, to kind of validate your your opinion and beliefs and thoughts about how these things should work. It's a very, very powerful setup and I think if as you extend that even further into some of the MARQUETTA stack and you think about what you can do with open Apis, what you can do with the webhooks that also make calls directly into our customers even in the transaction, something we called just in time funding. When you think...

...about putting this entire kind of universe and platform and set a capabilities together, it really allows, when you know whatever entity is trying to create the right experience, much, much, much finer grained control and the ability to really produce the right set of decisions. So rights. That of outcomes for much more fine grain sets of customers and consumers than they probably ever could before. And I really like how you talk about sort of bringing that credit decision to the transaction rights and the closer we bring these things together, whether it's, you know, Byopu, later is a great example, but also in terms of risk control and sort of just how you how you bake the focus less about the account less about this sort of big grandiostatic thing, and now it's real time. It's this specific person with this specific merchant making the specific transaction at a particular point in time. It's a very, very powerful place to go. I'm curious if you if you think of this is being something that's I mean it's uniquely enabled in a certain way by technology, because you just couldn't have done this sort of analysis and real time decision, you know, prior to certain speeds of networks and capabilities of processing, etcetera. But I also wonder if there is a degree to which some of the machine learning, Ai, what have you, you want to call it, but you know, it was hard to make sense of that. Like I can imagine if you're in the old school of like here's my five page rule book. It's very hard to figure out like what it should be with all these different merchant types. And so do you see, this is kind of a moment that's not only new capabilities of a kind of new technology opening the door and unlocking things. It just it wasn't that we didn't think of them before, so they weren't technically really feasible to do, or at least to do with any kind of real uplift or optimization versus the old way in. This is kind of a moment it feels like we're all of a sudden these things are possible and it turns out there more valuable than maybe we appreciate it. You know, I think it really does unlock a lot of capability. You know, so real time decisioning allows you to get much more fine grained and kind of take that, you know, five fifty page rule book and codify that to something that can operate transaction by transaction. But we're also working, of course, in aimachine learning and kind of extending that way beyond that rule book to the point where the machine is kind of doing predicted analytics and making suggestions back to the customer. So this is an area of research and development that we see very, very interesting opportunities in the industry at large. Even if astruct this even further, the reality is that this technology has made much more data available to use for a particular decision and a much more when you manute decision than we ever would have before. You know, the the amount of data and and sort of papers I have to share for a new line of credit or a mortgage or something. It's a very complete picture, but it's an...

...arduous process. Is An urges process for the consumer and it's argus process for the lender. You'll the more we're able to use this from just sort of other digital data that that's out there in the world. You know, they provide safe and secure ways to leverage this in sort of just in time decisions. I think you can unlock a lot of really advantageous consumer experiences and it's also, to your point, great a kind of minimizing the the overall risk for the lender as well. You know, I think there was a neils report not long ago that called out card fraud is as a as a very, very large portion of just global fraud overall, and so I think the ability to bring these kind of microdecisions and, you know, the sort of data lake or ocean of data, if you will, to the problem at hand unlocks a lot of capabilities and, frankly, is another scenario where it's better for the lender and it's also better for the consumer. Yeah, I think that's I think one of the things I realized, I guess is the old guy from Fintech now here in this conversation, but is just the degree to which the ability to optimize these decisions and improve them really could unlock not only benefits to lenders but to consumer. Is it? One of my one of my cofounders, Paul it's sometimes says like every dollar of interest to consumer pays above the basic cost of funds is done because of inefficiency in the system. Right, like if we had been smarter about making a decision and hadn't suffering loss as we could all be charging, we wouldn't be approving transactions that are going to be repaid or that are fraudulent, and everybody would be paying the you know, the federal funds right on all their borrowing, because there'd be no losses. And we're so far from that and I think sometimes we lose the picture of how much the world can get better for consumers as well as lenders when we get better at making these determinations, because there's just there's so much, you know, if you think of losses as that, the problems being our loss is too high in the banks to a pretty good job managing to them often. But if you think of the problem as are approvals as high as they could be for the losses were willing to suffer? Well then then you get a very different picture of what the opportunity space is to do better decisioning and make, you know, make finer grain decisions that then unlock more of that a provability for credit for consumers. I did want to dive into your d secure or not. I'm always curious about whenever I put my credit card online now I'm a little nervous that my credit cargo play. So what is the nature of you know, that technology, he said, makes you feel more comfortable when you're doing stuff. I've got credit freezes on all my identities because, you know, I just figure like between everybody's been hacked, between target and and the credit bures. Like said, information's probably out there. What are you guys seeing in that space? I feel like fighting fraud and making consumers more comfortable. You know, transacting digitally is a really valuable thing but also a pretty hard problem to solve, given the changing nature of the threat environment from a from a fraud perpetrator point of view. Yeah, you know, it's one of these prettily areas where you know you've got good actors and bad actors and each is up lovely in the game constantly,...

...and so it's a continual area of innovation. You know, and to your point, I really love the framing that it's not just about minimizing losses, but it's really about ensuring that we can put as much of the funds in the system towards good work as possible, towards approving as many good transactions as possibly can. You know, I frankly I wish more merchants and more card issuers would use dsecure more often, because I know I, as a card holder, really sort of appreciate it when that POPs up and and I know that it's the merchant I think it is, and it's my card and it's I'm very intentionally using that transaction at the end of the day, you know, it's not up to the issuer. It's up to the our customer to decide to make those determinations, and you are are actually one of the things you can use real time decisioning for is to kind of queue that off or kickoff that particular process. But for those who haven't experienced it started as this very clunky sign into forty seven different websites experience where if you did an online transaction with your card and and there were some concern that it might have been fraudulent, you basically have to go prove your identity and kind of go through this big, long, arduous process. Over the last many years has gotten much smoother and with a lot of car programs out there, you know it's something doable now from your cell phone. I did. It's a much, much smoother, much more less invasive process, yet still brings that high degree of certainty both to the merchant as well as the consumer that this is the transaction. I really think it is and really intended to be. So it's just an interesting way. You know, if we go back to kind of open Apis Webhooks, kind of really how dynamic Marquetta is with our customers right in the transaction flow. You know, with our capability of just in time funding, our customers get an opportunity to make an authorization decision when they want to, real time in that transaction. You could almost conceptually think of d secure as an opportunity for the cardholder to be part of that transaction approval process as well. I think that's threatened it. It is interesting to think about how, if you can reduce the friction for something like that process, how does that enable you to maybe actually be more liberal and where you ask for that verification and reduce fraud? And it's it's kind of driven by hey, if it's really hard to do, I'm not going to do it very often. I'm going to suffer some of those losses because it's I got to be pretty highly confident. But it's really interesting to think about how you can simplify that experience like go huh, now we can do it more and and actually reduce the levels of fraud, not just because we're smarter identifying it, but because we've reduced the burden involved to do a verification of a transaction and therefore it's not as penalizing to us or to the consumer to actually leverage that that capability. Absolutely, the the more are arduous something is, the more...

...you have to be really protecting against significant downside. Yeah, it's it's that kind of digital technology experience of like a you know, there's costs on both sides, right, and so you've got to you got to weigh those and the cost of friction is, I think, often underappreciated, at least in our space at like it's very bad and we actually found, interestingly, from from a lending point, a little different than your car transaction, but that the best barrowers were not only rate sensitive but they were friction sensitive. And so not only did we see do we see drop off and we introduce friction to the process in terms of conversions, which anybody could predict, but they're actually an adverse selection kind of dropoff where the best barers are like no, no, I'm not paying that price, I'm not doing that work, and so you actually saw not only decreases in the conversion funnel, but you can see deterioration and the overall quality of your bar were pool because that the good barers are friction sensitive as well as rate sensitive and they will walk away when your process is worse, not just when your rates are higher, which was a really interesting learning but I think tells you a lot about the kinds of experiences we have to build in the future. It's a really good point, Jeff, and the sort of selection bias there is fascinating well, as I guess regular listeners know, as the same three questions to everybody too in the podcast. So I'll fire. I'm at you now and I'm curious to hear your answers. The first what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gotten? It's a great question, Jeff. I've been the lucky recipient of a lot of great advice, a lot of great mentory and I've worked with a lot of great leaders over the years, so I've picked up a lot, but I think if I had to pick one, it would be that this realization that perception is reality, and this is a especially cute I think working with your coworkers, your customers, your partners, you know kind of all the stakeholders in whatever environment or situation you're in. The end of the day, no one has perfect data. You try to share and be transparent and open, but at the end of the day yeah, everyone is going to have their own view of this and kind of getting to the point of realization, and this was a hard lesson for me to learn. I took hearing this advice many, many, many times, but eventually I kind of set up a little experiment and prove to myself that this advice was true. That's the way a person perceives something. That's a fact. That's reality. You you have to work with that just as much as one plus one equals to that is great advice, as I showed, that as my kids took away when I showed the movie sneakers. You know, I'm sure you know the movie sneakers, but there's that line with the world operates not on reality but on the perception of reality. That's a it is a fundamental realization. That's a great piece of advice. All Right, question to we you're kind of newer into the the lending consumer banking space, so maybe you don't have an answer here, but was there any advice as you were coming into the space that you were given or perspective that we'll share with you that you thought were...

...particularly insightful? Are you still learning on the job? I'm definitely learning. You have. I've been in the tech industry for decades but only started at Marquetta and this is my first for a really into finance last June. So well, I've gotten a lot of advice that I've learned a ton along the way. I'm still looking forward to what the kind of capstone on that's going to be. All right, well, welcome to the welcome to the space. It's a fun transition as as someone who came from the enterprise clod technology space into Fintech, it's been I always enjoy being not just at the fundamental building of tech but at the intersection of tech doing something and changing the capabilities of a different industry, which is what I think is happening in Fintech right now, where those in modern technical capables are really opening up new possibilities for finance, and that's always to me in some ways more exciting than the building of those building blocks that enable it, because it's where the rubber meets the road for real world applications. I was just going to add that to your point. Tech is sort of intellectually interesting in its own right, but what really gets me going is why we do it. You know the impact it has on our communities, on our partners, on our colleagues, on our customers. There has to be a reason, at least for me personally, there has to be a reason, to build what we do, to experiment, to innovate, and it's all about the impact it can have on real people and the folks around us. Yeah, that's the I agree. That's the thing that makes it exciting for me is to see those real world applications. So my last question for you. What's one bold prediction for the future? You can take this anyway you like, any direction you to you choose, but one bold prediction for the future? Well, you know, I I really see that this shift to more dynamic, more sort of modern kind of transaction level experiences continuing and, frankly, taking us in places that we can't even envision yet. You know, I talked about a bunch of them in this last half hour, but as I think about people using their phones, is I think about people using their watches, as I think about, you know, payments as part of everyday life, it's it's not the card, it's not the credit line, it's the specific transaction and kind of everything around that. How do you think about rewards for it. How do you think about record keeping, just everything that you might want, kind of shifting that focus from the account and shifting it down to the transaction and everything bad enables? You know, I think we're still, frankly, in the very, very early chapters of what that really means to a to a card holder, to someone out there either conducting business or living their life. I think it's really interesting and I think it it ties to this concept of the embedding of finance more deeply, of the lending experience, I'll say, into the transaction itself. You said kind of BNPL was not just a different product. It is really embedding the lending decision in the purchase experience, which you know,...

...is kind of a new concept, but is. It's not just the real time nature or the transaction specific nature, but I think it is the part of that features, the embedding of that experience into the actual consuming, shopping buying experience, which is, I think you're right, worth the very early days of knowing what that really means. But it will be interesting to watch it develop over the next handful of years and I think we got a pretty good person to it from. Well, thanks for having for coming Randy, I appreciate it and Haring your thoughts. This was a enjoyable conversation. I'm sure the audience will greatly appreciate it. Right Fun. Thank you very much. Appreciate your having the song. Upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does to. UPSTARTS AI landing platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models, which fraud rates near zero. Upstarts all digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto lending programs or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Upstart offers an into in solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile, with all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing and service. Thing it's all possible with upstart in your quarter. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting UPSTARTCOM forward banks. That's upstartcom forward banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player, using apple podcast. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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