Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 66 · 4 months ago

Understanding the People Behind the Numbers in Fair Banking

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Data is critical to lending institutions, but financial institutions must remember that there are people behind the numbers. 

With a focus on fair lending practices, financial literacy and compliance - Britt Faircloth, SVP, Fair Banking Officer at Valley Bank, offers her insights on how financial institutions can partner with their compliance teams to offer the right products for their communities.

Join us as we discuss:

  • Using data to ensure products fit the needs of communities
  • How compliance and product can partner
  • Fair lending approaches applied to non-lending products
  • Corporate responsibility and environmental, social and governance (ESG)
  • The importance of financial education and literacy

You're listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation and more. Let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders in lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Britt faircloth, the s VP and fair banking officer at Valley Bank Britain, and I had a really fun conversation. We went through her approach on compliance, of partnering with Product Deeper in the product development cycle, about looking for the right kinds of products for your community, not just the right compliance checks on your products. We also talked through a little bit about diversity and inclusion and the importance of your staff mirroring your customer base in terms of having the right voices at the table and perspectives being brought together. And at the end she uses great phrase the fair lending thought process applied to non lending products, and I thought the exploration of what that meant and how that applied was really interesting. So lots of great thoughts. I'm loving bringing in compliance leaders, leaders outside of the pure lending space, to give us their perspectives. I think it's a really unique point of view and this conversation with Brett has a lot of great perspectives for anybody in the space. So please enjoy this conversation with Britt faircloth. Brett. Welcome to the podcast and thanks for making the time to join us today. Thanks, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me. You know, I've started using the same question for all my guests to start off the podcast because I think it's really fascinating. Um, you know, I just gonna say most of us didn't grow up dreaming of being bankers. Um. So I'd love to understand you know what the what the Path was that led you to being, you know, a fair banking officer to bank. It's a it's a pretty different thing that you probably dreamed about when you were a kid. Yeah, no, and probably very different than, uh, than a lot of compliance paths. Um. I actually started in banking as a drive up teller like two...

...weeks after I graduated high school or in so, yeah, Um, and that was that was largely because I just wanted something with good hours like that was really my primary concern. I think at the time right it was like you don't have to work a lot of weekends, you don't have to work at night, Um, and, and I really found that I enjoyed it. So I was a drive up teller at a very small credit union, I worked as a in lobby teller at a larger institution and then I switched to back office in operational roles like deposit ops, loan ops, and then about eleven, eleven or twelve years ago, an opportunity came up in compliance and I just was looking for a change and it happened to be a fair lending focus role, Um and they were willing to train me and once I got into it, I just I loved the data analytics piece of it. Um. I loved the fact that you got to feel like you were doing something really good for commune at ease and being able to help make sure that products were transparent and fair. I loved that aspect and so I've been focused on that pretty much ever since. Interesting that. That is interesting. I haven't had to say I started off as a drive up time. We have to the millennials out there gonna have to have to do a little google search on whatever. Yeah, you know the tubes and everything right. It was the old tubes and the I'll have a few of those here in my town there. You know, they got an a t M in there, but you can still see the for the tubes and get the two lanes for the drive up and the whole, the whole thing. So it's it was a thing. We'll tell me a little bit about your role. Is a fair bank. How do you how do you think about what the your primary objectives are? It's kind of a broad category, I feel like, Um, and I'm always curious how you think about kind of what your what your main objective are, what you're trying to get done at the bank. It's very broad. So I cover every product and service at the bank essentially in some way, from Um, from the sort of the conception and design process through the marketing, through, you know, to disclosures, delivery plaints, you...

...know, anything and everything Um I may have a role in, and so I like to think about it as helping to make sure that the products that we put out meet the needs of the community, Um, that they're fair and that they're relatively, you know, transparent, that people can understand what their expectations should be of what they're getting in a product or service from Value Bank Um and that we deliver on what we tell them that they're going to get. How do you mean? So I loved your answer that you you like the data analytics portion of the experience. How do you think about the data that informs like meet the needs of the community? Um Fair? Those are really interesting questions because they're not necessarily easy to define or quantify exactly what what meets the Bar? Um. How do you think about, you know, defining or using data to to kind of drive the question of like what are the products that meet the needs of the community and are we offering them in a fair way? Yeah, it's interesting because in some way is we have more data now than we probably ever have in the past, but it's not always easy to sort of condense it down and figure out what you need, you know. So I'm often looking at things like denial rates across different groups and and are we denying certain groups of borrowers and applicants more frequently Um and if so, is there a reason for that? Is, is there truly a credit quality difference and, if so, what's driving that? So are we are we denying more people because maybe they don't have the right amount of cash to close, for example? And if they do and there's, you know, that sort of liquidity issue, do we have an opportunity to maybe partner with some groups or to set up something where we can help people with downpayment assistance and and is there a way that we can help to change that? Or or if we think that there's an issue Um from a financial literacy standpoint, is there a way for us to partner and provide education Um to start getting borrowers ready Um for some of our products? So really trying...

...very hard to look at data differently now, even though it's data that maybe we've already had access to for a long time. But how do we get to the right point to where it's meaningful, because there's so much data available that if you're if you're not thinking about what it really means and how you can leverage it Um, it's very easy to get overwhelmed. Yeah, it's such a great point because I think there's this sometimes people talk about data being the new whatever. It's like super valuable. I actually feel like it's almost the opposite. Not The data is not valuable, but data can be overwhelming and it's the ability to draw insights from data that's and and by the way, everybody has lots of people like I got so much data. It's valuab everybody's got lots of day we were generating tons of data these days, but the ability to like draw insights from the data and then make smart choices based on it is much harder than getting access to large amounts of data. That's a it's a hard thing to do. Well, I think, yeah, it's it's a whole different skill set. It really really is. Yeah, and I love the comment you're making because it really connects the idea of compliance. I mean I think compliance can feel like this like checkbox almost away. Legal sometimes feels to me in organization was kind of like opposed to the business and it's like that the hurdle that I must cross to get done the thing that I want to do. And you're really talking about compliance partnering with Product Areas To say, how do we actually improve the experience of customers in a positive way, not be the stumbling block on the good idea, which I feel is how it's certainly fintext and to view the function of compliance and I think sometimes how some of the bankers in line of business folks tend to view it. I love the idea that you're a partner in development of product and not a check box along the path of it. Yeah, and that's not just a fintech viewpoint. I think I started in compliance where the viewpoint was that compliance was like the land of no right, that you would come with this great idea compliance would be like Um, and we've really, I think, as an industry, tried to shift from that, I think in the last several years, to where, you know, it's not a no, it too maybe Um, you know, maybe we maybe we can do this and here are ways that we can mitigate the risk to do something and here's here's what I can bring to the table to help you do it. Um,...

...maybe I can provide you with information, maybe a metrics, Um, whatever the case may be. But how can our team be a resource to a business line to help them achieve what they're trying to do? Yeah, how do you drive that changing culture, not just in your team, but I'm curious how you drive the change in perception and engagement style across line of business owners that maybe have grown up in the traditional world of banking where they're kind of view compliance or, I think legal in no way is an opposition. So kind of like I'm gonna wait off until the last minute to talk to these folks and see if I can get my rubber stamp. How do you how do you think about changing the mindset and engaging those folks earlier so you can actually have a more collaborative approach to to find better solutions to your client needs? Yeah, I think it just takes time in some cases, right, you have to you have to be their partner and back them a few times when you can before they start to realize like, oh, this, this is a resource Um and and so you have to offer to help a lot, I find before people will start taking you up on it. But once they take you up on it and they realize that you can bring value, it's usually very smooth sailing. But it it takes time to to get there. You got to you gotta you gotta prove it, right, like, yeah, you gotta prove it. Sometimes, you know, you gotta, you gotta bribe them. Maybe you've got to be the person that shows up to the meeting with cookies? I don't know, but you know you have to. You have of my product managers from Google wrote a book. Always bring the donuts and that was his Li brings the donuts to the meeting. Well, because then you're you're friendly and you're approachable because you know you you provided afternoon snacks or morning breakfast or whatever it is. Um. But a lot of compliance, I find, is relationship building and if you can build relationships with people, they're comfortable coming to you and and my job is predicated a lot on people being comfortable with talking to me about what they think the needs are, about what the challenges are. You know, I will never know everything about every product and serve us in every line of business...

...if people don't come to me. Yeah, absolutely. Now I want to ask, are there are there particular product areas you've been focused on? Our things you guys think you've done that are interesting innovative? We talked about a couple of the last time you and I spoke, but I'd be curious where you think they are interesting product areas you're engaging in. Um, that might be lessons to learn for others in the industry. I don't know if it's if it's a specific product area, but I will say that one of the things that we have focused on very heavily is our own internal diversity. We've really taken the approach and the thought process that, in order for us to really serve our communities, are internal staff should should try to mirror those communities a little bit better, that there will always be certain groups of people that feel more comfortable dealing with someone who looks like them, sounds like them or or is like them in some way. Um. So we've really focused a lot. We've got a great Um d and I officer and her team that have worked sort of tirelessly. We we feel very strongly that where we have more diversity, we have more diversity of thought. Um, that brings greater ideas of how to serve our communities and that we all, you know, grow and and better ourselves in that way. So we have, um, several associate resource groups that are D E and I team sort of facilitated and set up. And so you know, whether you're an Asian employee, Hispanic, African, American, lgbt Q, we have several of these groups and and the premises that anybody can join these groups and sit in on their their webinars, their events and Um, it's a great way for people to sort of learn about, you know, their co workers and what's important to them, and I think that helps to drive a conversation about what's important to our communities and if you understand that, I think you're on your your way to serving them better. That's great. Tell me a little more about these associate resource groups, like how do you think about the structure of the purpose? You know how they operate there. It's a fascinating idea, but it's one...

I actually serve as an executive advisor to one of our internal employee resource groups, with what we call them, but kind of how they function. And one of the things I think is interesting is this question of are they there to serve the needs of that employee base? Are they there to help educate the employees about the experiences and, in perspective, history of that of that category of people, and how you balance because some of them, I feel like those groups are being asked to serve the company by like running a black history on series of events or Asian Pacific Islander heritage hit month, you know, his series of events are kind of like work for the company, and then there's sometimes when I want the company to be doing work to support them and their experiences and there and so talking people about how you think about the balance between those two in the context of those associate resource groups, I think it is a balance, Um, and I think ideally it's a little bit of both. Right. So, you know, you may have a like a women's resource group that helps to pay maybe junior workers with senior female mentors that can help them navigate challenges that might be unique to being a woman in the Industry Um, and I think that serves that group of employees very well. Um. But we do also have times where our associate resource groups are doing things like you're talking about black history month or um you know there were some Asian and Pacific Islander heritage events. We we have some some Great Hispanic events and those I think serve as a purpose to really sort of educate the whole Um employee base and and to help them to sort of drive better understanding of different people in the organization and and help to maybe have people working together with a more diverse group of people. So I think it has to be both and I think you you're very successful when it is both, um, in helping to sort of drive really good collaboration and inclusion, right, because you can be diverse and still not be inclusive, but I mean that's the reality. We we don't like to say that, but it's true. You can be very diverse but do not have people that feel like they belong or...

...that they're included. So I think when you have both of those sides to it, you helped to drive the actual inclusion piece. Yeah, that's great. That's a that's a fabulous point. Um, tell me, I know you guys are doing some work on the corporate social responsibility side. It's certainly one of the one of the hot topics these days. Um, tell me a little bit about what you guys have going on that space, what you've been working on. We have a very, very robust Um corporate social responsibility and environmental social and governance team. There's a you know, there's a committee that meets to talk about, you know, very broad high topics like climate change and and things of that nature. We we put out our E S G report recently that talks about all of our efforts in the corporate social responsibility and E S G, space and and that was really great to sort of start to compile everything, because some of these things are housed, you know, kind of across the organization in work that we're doing, whether it's volunteerism, Um, our our CR a team, of course, has a very active role in working with community groups and providing services and providing funding for things. Um. So really we have tried to tie it all together in that E S G report, Um and, like I said, we have a very broad team that is doing a lot of work across many different groups and avenues. It's actually there were some things when I read the report that I was like man, I didn't know we were doing that either. So it's it's very it's very broad and I'm very proud of what we've managed to do. I I don't think a week goes by that I don't see some sort of corporate communication about how we were active in in something, whether it was a food bank or Um, you know, some kind of five K walk for a cause or or raising money for something. So we have an employee base that is very, very active in their communities. I will say that are you doing anything on the financial legic cation side. I feel like this...

...is this really interesting topic for banks Um and we we've struggled with this, frankly, and up started as we talked with our consumer because I feel like there's this element of what we sometimes calls making you eat your Broccoli, which my kids actually like Broccolini, at least. I don't know that it's gonna make the different distinction, but it's kind of like, how can you be effective at helping people actually not just providing the education, beginning them to engage with and learn from the opportunity to understand, you know, financial literacy and products a little bit better? Yeah, we do. We we do a fair amount of financial literacy that our employees, you know, volunteer as the teachers for. There are several organizations that we partner with to facilitate some of that Um and I think we're trying to take the approach of, you know, the thought process that education is really important. Financial Education is important to people and there's a gap in that education. Right. It's certainly not the only factor in improving um the inclusivity of lending, but it's one of the factors and we used to live in a in a society where a lot of this was taught in school, right. You know, many, many years ago and in high school you may have had sort of a personal finance or some sort of home economic class where you learned about balancing your checkbook, you know, way back when, and and all of these things. Um. But a lot of that has has gone out of our school system and I know some school systems in some states like Florida, are trying to bring some of that back and make it mandatory. But I do think there's a huge gap and a really huge need and that's where I've seen a lot of institutions step up to try to fill that gap with financial literacy, Um, you know, to help people really understand, because if you didn't get it in school, Um, it's very hard. Where would you learn that? Right, if your if your parents maybe weren't the greatest with money, would you have anybody to teach you if you didn't get it at home or at school? Yeah, it's not at school. It becomes kind of inherited in that way where people, you know, parents who are good or understand it well and teach their kids and are conscientious can do that before kids that that maybe...

...don't have that our parents without the time and resource into that, it's harder. Have you found anything that's particularly effective? I mean this is maybe I ask as a parent of kids who are trying to get to be smart, but it's always stunning to me, even just the basics, like we have consumers call us and ask, you know, the difference between interest rate and a P R and and total lack of clarity and understanding on on how those things are calculated. So, but I'm curious. Have you seen programs that are particularly effective or that you think work well versus others? Because it's a I think it's such an important topic Um for the country as a whole that we that we have a better, better educated on, you know, more financially literate population. Yeah, it is. You know, I think we should actually focus on it for younger kids. You know, we we tend to focus, I think, at like a middle school high school level a lot just acrospination, and I think younger kids are kind of where it's at right to start Um, you know, building a program that talks about, you know, wants versus needs and how to budget money and how to save your money. And, you know, I actually think that earlier you can start, the better. Um. The FD I C actually has a really good program called money smart that that teaches different age groups about different things that are sort of appropriate for the for the age group that they're in, and I've always been a big fan of that content because I think it really works for a very broad group. But I think this is where other organizations really have an opportunity to step in, whether, you know, it's girl scouts, boy scouts. You know, I think there are, you know, sort of after school activities and groups for kids that could step in here and and have a role that could really help in preparing a younger generation for long term financial health. Yeah, I love that. I love the younger age. I know boy scouts. My son's going through this now, and there's a personal management mayor badge, and it's like interest rates and bonds and equities and like it's it's you know, if you knew all this stuff well, you have a good base, but it's that's probably something that's not until middle, middle school, into middle school kind of, or even high school. Work is and it's probably not a popular badge, right, like they probably...

...if you want to be an eagle scout you have to get it. So it's not right where, but it is it is well taken because it's it's required for the rank. Yeah, but you know, like when you're talking about younger groups, I'm sure there are like fifty other badges that the younger kids would rather have than like this. Personal you know, finance are a little more Um. I have saying my kids interest on their Um they have a checking account through through one of the services, and I paid them interest and they love it and I paid a very high rate of interest because, well, otherwise it doesn't add up very fast. You know, like one person on a on a hundred bucks a year is like every month they're going, I got five cents, like I don't. I don't feel it. So I pay like a percent a month, which which starts out they're doing well, then right, I know I'm losing money on that. I mean it's well balances out in other ways, but but I found it to be you know, they sometimes worry that they've now gone too far in the saving side because I watch the number go up there like I pull my money. You need to learn to actually, you know, you have to both both enjoy spending money on the things that matter to you and and saving appropriately for the long term. It's yeah, yeah, there's a balance to it and it's a hard one. It's a hard one to figure out sometimes. Yeah, for us, for US adults too, not always an easy, easy bout. One last question I wanted to ask you about was you've made this comment when we talked earlier, about applying the fair lending thought process process to non lending products, and I thought that was a fascinating statement and I'd love for you to explain what you mean by that. Sure. So one of the things that we're seeing just in the in the regulatory environment and across the industry is a focus on non lending products and sort of the fairness there. So I think about something like deposit accounts or overdrafts Um you know, with the thought being are you are you equally paying items that come in for different groups of people? Are you waving fees for certain groups of people but not for others? Right, so that's that's one of the focuses that I have as well is how are we eating people on non lending products, and a...

...lot of it comes down to things like fees and Um and the structure of of our accounts and and overdrafts is just a huge focus for the industry right now. So, Um, and it's sort of akin to a lending product in a way, right. Um, you know, because if you paid an item, you may you may be carrying a negative balance, things like that. Um. But I think it's important to make sure that your products are are fair and transparent across the board, and a lot of that is non lending products. Right. So you have your deposit products and Um, if you're offering some kind of rewards, are you are you giving people what you say you're going to give them? Are you, you know, are you charging the account the way you say you're going to? So some of this gets very technical and again into the data side of things. Um, but I think it's really important to make sure that you can give people what you say you're going to give them and that people can trust you as an institution. Um and and it's critical to do that kind of analysis and sort of uh self analysis to see if you really are doing what you say you're doing. So just one thing I want to fallp on that because we often struggle with this, which is the kind of like are you treating different groups equally and if not, is there a good reason? To your point earlier, like is this population really risk here from a credit point of view? And that's why the denial rate or the average interest rate might be higher? And that's something that's a little easier to quantify in some ways because you have real lost data and you can go well, yeah, we can see we can see losses, or you can use credit scores. So I would argue they are pretty poor proxy to real risk. But their metrics in the non lending products, it can be a little, I think, I would imagine, harder to figure out what the you know, the data that you use to determine if you've got, you know, a reasonable disparity or one that's unfair. Do you have any advice or things you found? Are Ways you think about that question, because it's a this question of like is it is it reasonable to have that disparity? Is is an important one, but one that feels like it's quite hard to define in terms of data and metrics, particularly for lending products where not a clear like risk metric that you're kind of...

...targeting. It is hard and I would say the the only advice I have is to really challenge yourself on what you think is reasonable. Um, you know, because sometimes I think we're we're very prone to thinking that, oh, institutions have done it this way for for decades, right, so it's obviously normalized, it's it's not an issue, Um. But I think everybody should challenge themselves to think about if, if what they're doing is reasonable and if it makes sense for the consumer, if there's an actual business reason for it that that you you can feel okay about, right, because it's one thing to to try to determine if something is allowable per regulation or or something like that, but I also try to think about whether something is right or not. Right would I be would I be upset if someone was treating my mother this way right? or or my my you know, my teenage child who may not know better, um. And sometimes it just comes down to really challenging yourself to look at something with with sort of eyes wide open and and see how you feel about it. Um. It's certainly not an all emotional reaction, but I think a lot of us, Um, if we did that, may be able to think about things differently. Um. And sometimes you have to sort of challenge that long standing thought process of well, we've always done it this way, it might not be the best way, right. Yeah, it reminds me of UH. You know, my son recently read the book on Elon Musk Um and he's kind of always going to I think, he says, down to the physics of it, but like down to first principles, like not the way it's been done or the way we say or the formulas all used, but like just break it down to the basic principles of what's going on and doesn't make sense, and I think that's such a important thing, particularly in compliance, where it's easy to get caught up in the way we've always applied the rag, the ratio, we've always looked at for this uh analysis. We always look at this and it's always had this and that's fines. We don't even really think about what the principles underline that are and do they still apply and does it make sense and...

...is it? Is it achieving what we wanted to achieve at the end of the day? Yeah, well, and it's one of the things that I say a lot, is that we have to remember that there are people behind all of the numbers we look at. Right, it's very easy to sort of try to condense things down to data. And the data is important, don't get me wrong, Um. But I do think it's important to kind of pull yourself back and remember that these are people who have financial goals, things that they're trying to achieve, UM, and they're not they're not just a score or or an algorithm right, that there are people behind this that are trying to to do something, whether that's by a home, by a car, you know, manage their account, whatever the case. Maybe there are people behind all of these numbers. Yeah, do you have any particular ways that you try and help that stay top of mind for your team? I keep I keep saying one last question that I keep playing with other ones that I wanted, um, but it's such a great point about remembering the people behind the numbers of the data or the process or whatever, but it could be like I'm curious how you put that in practice and help your team actually, you know, keep those people in mind. I do. I go back a lot to like the grandmother or the child rule, like if if your grandmother was getting this product, would you feel okay about it? If if your kid had signed up for this product, would you feel okay about it, Um, and and that's I try really hard to personalize it based on your family, your friends, whatever the case may be. Um, if this was not just a uh, you know, sort of an unknown person or or sort of a stream of numbers in your data set, how how would you feel about that? Um, and it takes real effort, but I try to remind people of that as frequently as I can. Yes, it's a great thing to keep in mind and, uh, what's up? Yeah, I think it's it's a great, great, great reminder of what's what's really important and why. This is why the industry matters and it's I will say it's as a guy came from tech. I've said this many times, but into finance, the focus of most bankers on the consumer and what's good for the consumer is not, I think, the pop the...

...perception of the industry, Um, but is much more real, at least in the kind of retail banking side, than I think most people appreciate. It's one of the things I've discovered and really enjoyed about the industries. People really are here trying to help somebody get a home or buy a car or, you know, you know safer safer retirement of college, whatever it might be. Absolutely, I think, you know, every institution that I've worked for or worked with was trying to do the right thing right there. There may be challenges to doing that, whether it's data, whether it's the regulatory environment, Um, but I feel fortunate to say that I have not worked with an institution that I did not feel like was was trying their best to serve the end of the day, was trying to do the right thing for their consumers. Yeah, all right. Well, this really is the last because I got three questions I always ask everybody at the end. Now. I won't go off topic, I can't, but I'm throwing a kind of rapid fires on now. So number one, what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gotten? Probably that communication is a an art form and a skill set unto itself. Right, whatever you're you're trying to say, it has to be said to the right person at the right time, Um, and have the right content right, because, no matter how you feel you're communicating, if the message isn't received, it has not been communicated appropriately, no matter how effective you think what you said was, if if the recipient didn't get the message. Um, then then you've kind of failed at that. So anything I've received in terms of communication has been particularly valuable. Such such a great point. Doesn't doesn't matter what you said, it matters what they heard at the end of the day. Pretty much. Yeah, I mean it's the reality of trying to commence somebody of something or convey information. All right, that's good career advice like that. What's the best piece of advice you've gotten about the consumer banking or lending space? Probably, like I said, that there are there are people, you know, behind all of these numbers. That was something that a mentor of mine used to push all all the time, that we had to step back and and think about, you know, individuals and and so if some money was receiving this ad how...

...are they going to receive it? Back to the communication piece, right, were they going to read it the way that we intended it? Were they going to get the message that we intended? Um? So, yeah, all about really kind of trying to step back and think about individual recipients and what they were thinking about and what their needs might be, and and trying to really kind of zoom in and zoom out when you need to in terms of the people that are behind your data. It's a great description. Zoom in and zoom out, and both both are important. Got To have both tools in the toolbox. Alright. And last question for real. What is one bold prediction for the future? This is my fire in a year or two and I don't think it's necessarily bold, but I think we are going to see more more disruption, more consumer options and more consumer choice in the space Um, whether that's via technology, additional product offerings Um. Right, we've seen sort of an explosion of technology um in the financial space. But sometimes technology is not enough, right. It's got to be paired with the right product offering Um, and I think we're going to see more partnership between institutions and maybe fin techs or other tech firms and and people, I think, figuring out the balance of the technology plus the product offerings and what people actually need. I love that prediction cause I do feel like the first wave of Fintech was I haven't talk about digitization. Is the wrong goal. It's kind of like let's take the old thing and make it available on the phone in a really interesting question is what's the new thing we could have made given the phone. That is better for the consumer. In the institution. I think we're just starting to get to the point where we're really seeing that question being tackled, which is an exciting time. Yeah. No, I think if we could get that balance right, we we would see kind of even less of the unbanked and underbanked space. Right we would see a real explosion, I think, of servicing maybe some underserved customers. I think that would be great. I love well, that seems like a great place to draw to a close. Bret, thanks for taking the time today and talk with...

...me. I really appreciate it. Thanks. I was so happy to be here. Upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. Up Starts AI lending platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models. With fraud rates near zero. Up Starts All digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers, whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto learning programs, or you're just getting started. Upstart can help. Up Start offers an end to end solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile. With all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing and servicing, it's all possible. Will upstart in your quarter learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting upstart dot com slash forward dash banks. That's upstart dot com slash board dash banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never missed an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player using apple podcasts. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

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