Leaders in Lending
Leaders in Lending

Episode 68 · 2 months ago

Winning the Battle for Member Loyalty

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In a market where the consumer is juggling multiple relationships with financial institutions, how can credit unions compete?

Consumers want to better understand their financial well-being, which means they need a holistic picture across multiple platforms. Drawing on data from a mix of daily digital habits can provide just that, while also driving loyalty.

Samantha Paxton, Chief Experience Officer at Co-op Financial Services, shares her experience in building these systems for credit unions and the indispensable value they serve for strong member relationships.

Join us as we discuss:

  • How to measure the strength of member relationships
  • Driving engagement with payments and money movement
  • How to help foster financial well-being by being friction-free and guiding members to achieve their long-term goals

You're listening to leaders and lending from upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, Best Practices around digital transformation and more. Let's get into the show. Welcome to leaders and lending. I'm your host, Jeff Kelner. This week's episode features my conversation with Samantha Packs and the chief experience officer at Co op solutions. I enjoyed this. We've been really wanted to talk a bit more about digital experiences and particularly the ability to engage users and sell additional products to your current users, and that's that's really what Samantha focuses on. So we dove into how you drive loyalty and, importantly, engagement, ongoing, active actions from your users, where they're engaging with you on a regular basis, how you understand their financial position to understand that next best product, effective ways to position other products and cross sell uh and that she really focused on starting with not the product that you want to sell, but the consumer's perspective and keeping the consumer's point of view at the center of building your journeys, building your experiences. I think a great reminder and a lesson for all of us about how you really deliver for the consumers to make sure their perspective is the one that is central to how you think about designing your different experiences and products. So with that, please enjoy this conversation with Samantha. Samantha, welcome to the PODCAST. Thanks so much for joining me today. Thanks, Jeffs. Great to be here. Yeah, so, you know, I've been starting with this. I don't know if this question will work for you, but I've been starting with all my guests with this interesting question of like you know, most of us didn't grow up beinging in the dreaming of being in the banking space. Uh, you know, it's not. I had different visions as a kid. Well, how did you? What was the path that led you to being in the financial services industry? It's funny. I I started my career in journalism. Journalism, that's not. Yeah, it's not financial services, journalism and entertainment, public relations, Um, and I worked for a strategy and Um uh, marketing consultancy and one of my clients, I've been there about ten years and we had a client that was an a t m network wanting to go national and that a t m network is was called Co op network at the time, and they needed uh, they asked me to start their marketing function Um, within their company, and this was right at the advent of the IPHONE. So I thought I would be there. Um, UH two years. I was the youngest V ever hired. I started a brand new function and I left this really exce industry to to...

...go work in financial services, which sounded really boring. and Um, all of a sudden technology started taking off and it became a really, really interesting industry really fast, and my company expanded from hardware to payments and money movements, and so all of a sudden I had a ton of freedom. I was in a really exciting industry that was expanding. It required a lot of ongoing learning, a lot of being able to be really nimble and shift quickly, and that was exciting to me. So, Um, I stayed and all of a sudden I'm in the payments and the payments industry and all of these use cases that have exploded in financial services. So it's actually a really exciting, fun sector to be part of. Yeah, I've been really enjoying my conversations with people in the technology partners to fies sides. I think there's just so much interesting innovative stuff going on in that space. Give us a little quick overview of how you know your your company works with financial institutions. That kind of the core things you do, and then I want to dive into I think it's really interesting because you guys are really focused, in my opinion, on one of the areas that F ies need to get better at Um and and need to move into the digital age. In some ways, where they're they're historical has a bit, but talk to people about what you guys do and then we can dive into that. Well, I'm the I'm the chief experience officer at coop solutions and we are our payments and financial technology company helping the nation's credit unions be able to compete with Fintech, big tech and big banks. And what we do is we create all of the use cases, the payment and money movement use cases, and all of the things that surround not the loyalty if the fraud mitigation, the consulting, the integration of work, all of those things that surround payments and have created essentially an ecosystem that is really capital intensive for credit unions or traditional F eyes to create on their own. So we aggregate all of that technology, we've we've connected the tech stock, we've connected the data, we put all of the security wrapped around it and then we can add a new use cases all the time, with the objective of building a stronger financial relationship between the end consumer and the financial institution. How do you measure the strength of that relationships it? It's an interesting objective, but then my mind goes right to like how does one determine if one has achieved such an objective? How do you think about measuring the strength of that financial relationship between the consumer and in the institution? It's a really good question. Um, so often traditional financial institutions look at revenue, they look at product revenue and you can look at product revenue and all of a sudden that will fall off a cliff, kind of like we just saw, as we've been seeing in the lending space, Um, so...

...many credit unions. That's their bread and butter. They look at that. Those financial results are a lag metric. Really. What the key metric is is the end consumer actively using you. So what what I think the objective means to be for financial institutions is to grow market share, and a grow market share through active usage. That's why we call it a primary financial relationship. There is no such thing as a primary financial institution anymore. The average consumer has five different financial relationships at least. They're incredibly empowered. So how are you, in the moments of every day, creating a connection and an interaction with the end consumer? So measuring interaction, measuring usage. That helps you better understand and consumer economic participation in your financial institution and to me that's the way. If you start with the consumer and measure from there and work backwards and then design your institution around that consumer, you're going to see um deeper usage and you're going to see better economic performance. Let me ask this is maybe a question that will be not directly on point for you, but the hard part about that, I think, for many financial institutions, is that they're often the business owners, are product line owners, and getting an incentive in a culture capabilities that are focused on the consumer across those products is hard and I'm curious the lessons you've learned from clients that have done this well, better or worse, what's worked, because that that feels like the organism. You said the organization, and I feel like organizationally, often we're set up siloed into products and not focused on the ind consumer, and that, ultimately, as much as the technology can be, the challenge to executing a vision like that. We have to get out of our own way. You're a hundred percent right. It's part partially it's because of our organizational structures and our operational structures that are making it difficult for us to grow, and so we have to kind of shelve that and we should. We should all think of ourselves as financial technology companies. We have to start with the end user and how are all of the ways that we are surrounding that end user and how are we taking out how are we meeting their needs in every moment and how are we taking out the points of friction? And I think you have to kind of get rid of or or look at it in a from a clean slate perspective rather than a business line perspective in order to make sure that we're not letting those traditional frameworks Um create a barrier for us to actually Um properly serve the consumer who was incredibly empowered to go find their own their own way, their own stuff, um to meet their needs. They're they're incredibly...

...empowered and incredibly comfortable and any point of friction they're out. So I mean, for example, I have a relationship with a with a credit union in my in my neighborhood and uh, I have an auto loom there and I wanted to open a credit card, a credit card. The new member Um team did not talk to the auto lending team. They did not understand I already they already had my data and could cross sell me these things across the board. And so I had to keep going back to the to the Credit Union to go wet signature my way into it, and I'm like, you are dude, you already have my information. It shouldn't be this hard. And so it's just the silos and those in those institutions. This really funny version of that. Um I as a national, large national bank that I that I have a relationship with and they had my some of my vestila before. Oh One K was there that I my area, that I'd rolled everything into and Um and I asked him for all alone. I said, well, you have to go to the branch. We can't help you with that. I gotta like walk like I can't just I can't call him. I get no, and so I saidn't forget that, I'm just gonna go. And I was buying a Tesla and they offered me an online loan through Tesla and it turned out that my bank funded the loan um but they could not offer me an online loan unless Tesla was offering me the online loan. That they were funny. I thought it was really fascinating that, like they ended up getting the business, but through no credit to them other than the decision to partner with Tesla, because they couldn't offer me an online or a digital experience for not alone, but they would do it through a partner. And that was just such a fascinating reality. Went you guys are you know, you have not engendered any loyalty. I'm not coming back. I'll just go to for the next time and you may not be the person who gets it, or who whoever, but you lost the sense of loyalty where I came to you first and you couldn't help me, and that that seems like a terrible place to put yourself in. In terms of keeping customers soil. It's it's the way loyalty is such a good word. I'm glad you brought up that word. That's that's where, Um, the battle for business is being spot I mean we we look so much at the value proposition of the traditional financial institution and we've been a very rate based, value um deliver centric. It's not very eloquent, but it's we've been very focused on being a low price leader Um as traditional F eyes. I think consumers today care as much about time and as they do about rates, and they're not always. I mean, how often are you shopping for a loan? Every five years? Maybe it's this is this is where financial technology companies are really Um beating out...

...traditional Fi's because they are in the interaction game. They are they are masters of interaction and engagements and they know how to build habits Um based on consumer need and they study it really well and they get really good at it. And so this is the opportunity in front of traditional fies to do the same thing and to to throw out these misconceptions. And that's why we're so focused on payments, because payments are a daily habit. There are daily way for the end consumer to get what they need to get done done. And so if if are the nation's credit unions can play in that space and do it in a friction free way. That leads to more loans. I mean, those are ways that you're deepening the relationship to build engagement up cross product lines. I want to dive into this kind of habits part, but it curse me. You're saying two things that are kind of totally separate and different and can miss lead someone, which is really interesting. One is like in the moment of a transaction you have to have little friction, which is like you want time on site, for instance, to be small to complete the transaction. And then you need things that are that are habit based, where you know, like habit based APPS. Look at how often do you come to the site, how long do you spend on this site? How many things do you do on this site? And you want those to be large and if you use the wrong metric for the wrong experience or don't understand the difference between Hey, I came here to transact. You need to make it as fast, easy simple. Don't ask me that. Things you already know get me through the process. With. I don't want extra interactivity, I want to be done. Uh, you've got to separate that experience from the daily interactivity where you want, like I want you to be engaged and coming back regularly and and staying on and looking at different pieces of kind of just very different metrics um for different kind of use cases, which is really interesting because that frictionless and then the interactivity and engagement are like very different sets of experiences you're trying to build. I like that idea of kind of separating the two, like this idea of in the transaction making it as frictionless as possible, but then what are the ways for us to add value? So that's what would make me want to engage. So this is why you're seeing so many organizations offer the ability to view your credit score. Those are ways that I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna go back to my capital one APP to know how I'm performing or in my wells Fargo or in my connected crediting, and it's something that helps me understand my financial position. So we've done some proprietary research at coop with E Y. It really looks at what is driving the a deeper financial relationship and what we've seen is that in techs have grown year over year. Five they've built trust and loyalty in one year two, with...

...paypal being the most trusted brand in financial services. And the way that they've done it is that they've focused on they've they focused on payments, because it's an active type of relationship builder, and they focused on needs. So there's use cases that show up Um um in the top you know where they're getting the most engagement and when you look at when you break down those use cases, those are about helping the end consumer first understand their financial position. So if you're an empowered consumer that has on average five different relationships, it's hard to understand how you're performing. How am I doing financially, and I am I do I have the right behaviors? Um? Do I have a clarity on my overall financial position? And then, second, once I know that, what kind of actions do I need to be able to take to improve the financial position? So this is where the idea of finding antial wellness and financial well being comes in and that's where kind of you breaking up this idea of being friction free and the transaction which makes it okay. You're saving me time now. Give me value, and that value is about helping the end consumer reach their overall financial goals, whether that's short term or long term. I really want to dive into that a little bit, understand what you're seeing people invest in, what's working, because I do feel like there's at least two things that come to my mind me. One like the kind of check your credit score, which obviously a number of fintechs have built their whole business around helping you understand your credit score and then finding loan products based on that information, like recommending to you cards or auto loans or personal loans or whatever in that moment, or mortgages, Um. And then there's this kind of like daily transaction, like what am I spending? Am I spending too much? How much do I have left on my whatever? That maybe typically I think of as a credit card APP but doesn't have to be. I'm curious that there's other habits you see that financial institutions are building to or kind of capturing, because those are two that that it's obvious that have been frankly captured mostly by a handful of credit card banks, effectively, uh and a handful of fintechs effectively on each side. I'm curious if there are other things you're seeing or if you're seeing people really trying and go after those two. They're wanting to see Um. They're wanting to have their overall financial habits and their their behaviors aggregated. So organizations are being bringing in your bill paid data, your your payment data, your uh, you know, your budgets, Um, your wealth performance. If you're able to kind of aggregate those and give a holistic picture to the end consumer, that's really good. The things that they're also doing having access to Um, a virtual financial advisor, haveing,...

...being able to have access to your money two days before your paycheck comes in. Um Chimes doing this and it's they are growing members, growing Um that relationship more and more and more and more Um. It's those types of activities and none. On the transactional side, it's contactless payments, is digital payments, is by now pay later. It's Um being having the ability to Um, to trade crypto Um from from the APP, you know, to to just get in the game. Um Not necessarily advocating for that, but it's just being able to create that interaction that is really making difference right now. What or even if you have crypto. I mean I have, like I'm a big C one. Do One, teach one learner. So I like I've traded some crypto just to like feel like I can't understand it less I do it. I don't fully understand it, but I am doing it. Um, but I have to go to second place, like I can't look at can't go to one place and go what am my outstanding credit card balances? What is my cash balance? What is my crypto balance? Like I can't, I can't, like I have to have at least four. I got a spreadsheet that I go to like five sites once a month and go pulling all my balances and tell me where I'm at right and try and get a picture this. That is real value. That's not being you know that most, most institutions and even fintechs aren't fully providing kind of that complete view. That's why we see such I mean we see such an opportunity in payments, like did you realize that you have x number of Subscriptions, Um, that you could be not having that? This is I mean those, those types of things. I mean in my own house our apple bill sometimes is you know, two a month. Wow, you know. And that's and now it's like the neon time subscription, they the Hulu subscription, then the Disney plus, like it all aggregates into that one. I all of a sudden you're spending no money. So it's those, those the values that that's the value that I feel like. It's an opportunity as a financial as financial institutions, and it's it's also part of our purpose. I mean, if we really see broader business trends and broader business strategy, consumers are attracted to companies that have a purpose and it isn't just something that we say, it's something that we do. And this is something that we could really be helpful for people in the way that they are behaving, because they're losing track of what they're doing. So just being able to give them Um clarity about their financial life and then giving them first actions, which is why chime is a successful right now. It's like, okay, here's the first action. I'M gonna give you access to your own capital, m by getting giving you uns to your paycheck two days early. You know, that's that's just a simple...

...thing to do. It's fascinating, like where does this live in the credit unions you work with, because if I think about experiences being mostly driven by again, lines of business, this is like almost a product set that's at the same time both non revenue producing right in some ways, right. These things don't, I mean we haven't. We haven't used the word cross cell yet, which I think is ultimately how you monetize this, but it is a product for which the basic experience is like non revenue producing. Right, you get somebody a free credit score? You don't, you don't get any money. So here's what's interesting. We can't look at revenue by products. We have to flip our thinking. We need to look at revenue by audience. So what are the products that come together in order to drive what one credit union is calling member economic participation? So you look at your audience sentiments, you really get to know them, you look at all we're swimming in data. What insights are we getting from the ways that are members are behaving and which ones are the most engaged and which ones are the most profitable? And how do we get on average the member base of a credit and the consumer base? Only of them fully utilize that credit and or that financial institution. I'm sure that's service being left on the table, that's money being left on the table. So I only looking at IT product line by product line. It's a huge missed opportunity. We're looking at it from a lack it's you're already behind. You're only looking at product by product performance. Your end consumer does not look at you that way. They look at you holistically. They look at what, what are all the things that I could do here? And maybe they don't even look at you holistically. They're just looking at we're all the things I need to get done and how can I get that done? So the more that we look at it from you have to start with the human and say what are all these things and really deeply understand this, not only the demographics, psychographics, the deep segmentation of of your existing consumer base, and say how can we better improve usage by these by our existing customer base, and grow from there? I guess my question is really, how do you see that work effectively organizationally, in the in the unions you work with? Because I feel like, you know, if I'm the person who runs lending, then I've like I've got a certain hat and putting in these kinds of capabilities doesn't. It's a cross product vision, but most of us are product oriented. So is it like is it a cheap experience? Officer? UH, is it? Is it? Is it? I feel like if you did it by committee, like it what helps everybody a little bit. So all of our senior leaders are gonna like contribute a little bit to the building of these sets of capabilities and ownership. It's gonna like, I don't know, I think if committee this places, things go to die. Um. So you know, like how do you see the organizations...

...actually structured to deliver that? Because I feel like that's where the idea can work. But then if you don't have the organization and the incentives across the leadership in the organization, and this is like yeah, we should totally do that and you're gonna get together next quarterly meeting and go we made no progress towards it, but we all like did this little thing in our product area that got a little bit better and we haven't even come close to attacking this vision. So that's my question, is like how do you, organizationally, incentive wise, actually get to a place where somebody owns and drives this kind of vision? Instead of capabilities that are outside of the contraditional product lines. It's a really good question. I'm seeing one credit union do it well right now and they're kind of embarking on it there. There they've been planning and kind of relooking at their credit union from the member's perspective, and so they are there. They did a ton of research on their not on products but on their existing customer base, and they have been focused on who they are targeting. So they were able to get a clear understanding of what kinds of members in my credit union are the most active and the most profitable and are driving the growth of this credit union. So they were able to look get out of the product view and get out of individual product performance and look at all the things that they have and they're measuring engagement and interaction and then, based on those member types, they are prioritizing where they invest based on that member's behavior and where they think that member will be going. So this is actually the credit union that coined the term member economic participation. Their objective is to improve usage and then economic participations. So you might have you be in the old way making a decision about credit score or Zell or you know something that seems expensive and you're not going to see the R Y on it, but you're not quite understanding how those products are then tying into four other products that they are creating usage with their credit union, which is then improving overall. You cannot overall Um uh cross sells are across usage of all of the of of your solutions, which is creating active participation in the credit union, which is then creating Um more usage of big ticket items. So it's it's what this credit union has done is thrown out the silos and they have come together to say how, in each of our roles, are we driving more...

...usage with these member types, and then they are making choices prioritize on the member, not prioritize on the divisions that they run or the products that they run. They're they're authentically understanding, transparently understanding how they contribute two not only Um, improving the ways that their members use them, but improving their value proposition to that member. How am I helping to serve that member more so that we're not losing them to Fin Techs? It's like then the blockbuster netflix example. Blockbuster was still performing pretty well up until the ends, but all of a sudden they ran out of customers. And this is essentially we can't let our existing structure harm our market share. And we are losing market share and we are seeing among traditional financial institutions and credit unions, and we're also seeing the American consumer really believe that traditional fies do not provide the service that, um, they're expecting, so they're going elsewhere. Yeah, there, I mean it is I was speaking to some credit union CEOS last week and I feel like one of my messages was you've never lived in a more competitive and an easier to switch world. Right. It used to be you were competing with the people down the street at a brand that your customers could walk into, and now you're competing with Goldman sacks and Marcus. Right, you're competing with all sorts of national companies and they have more ways to check that. They can go to Credit Karma and lending tree and check rates on different products. And so you're living in this in a very different competitive environment than we did fifteen or even ten years ago, Um, where competition is much, much broader and much more readily visible to your consumer than it was. And so if you're not finding ways to add value outside of I mean like my auto loane, I think is a great example. I went to my institution and they had they had gotten the right for the first shot in my business and they blew it right, right, and you know, you've got to be both helping that consumer that moment and giving them a better experience because of their current relationship with you, or you're not going to earn that business in the long term. And, Jeff, what you were saying earlier. What does this sit strategically in the Credit Union like? Is it at a chief experience officer? Is it the payments leader? I mean at the very base level on ways that you can incrementally make a difference here and not feeling overwhelmed by this. The Typical Credit Union. How's the payments leader? Four levels down in the overall executive team. There is not a head of digital. Typically there is not ahead of payments and it's not senior enough in the organization to go advocate for that active type of relationship with the end member. This is this is something that is hindering the performance of credit unions and they're finally, you know, they've been leaning on. Listen, we all have...

...to be focused on loans. We have to be focused on loans and all of the other things that are consumer does so, Jeff. What I think is really interesting is that most financial institutions do not have payments on the executive team. Payments is the daily interaction with the end consumer. Is the way that you're building habits to use that your credit union or your your bank. And when you kind of put baby in a corner, your your head of payments or your head of digital experience, if you have when, Um, not represented on your executive team who is advocating for that active usage with a member who is advocating for you building market share, this is something that is a miss. It is something that we are not what I'm noticing in credit aaims is that we don't prioritize payments. We leave it as because it traditionally has not been the big any maker for the Credit Union. But most credit unions are now seeing I have to have more balance in my interest income and my non interest income. Um, that's economic performance will align to your members behavior with your credit union. So instead of looking at it from them again, the product line, my product line perspective, you have to look at it holistically with how the member is participating across your your financial institution, and then how those lab metrics like economic performance are then coming Um as you designed your credit union in that way. It's interesting that I mind some of this whole conversation is your your institution needs to be greater than the sum of its parts and too often we think of it as the individual parts and we had them up and we don't. There is a greater sum there if we can actually bring the experience together and have an experience for the consumer that is better than what my mortgage experience was or my debit card experience was or my checking Experi so you are you're making a really good point, Jeff, about this idea of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. And I think as traditional financial institutions we do look at each of the parts and say how should we plan for each one of those divisions of the business? We need to look at it holistically and see how those things all come together in order to be in service to the end consumer. How do we continue to optimize the design and those Um functions to then deliver huge value at speed? This is why consumers are gravitating to technology because they are able to kind of deliver in an algorithmic way. They have they have transformed into technology stacks in a way that the end consumer is very used to engaging that we buy off...

...of Amazon, we google something that we need. Um, we there is an immediacy to our behavior and that's what they expect. In Financial Services we have to act like technology leaders. Absolutely well, this has been a fascinating conversation. I think a lot of values. This is topics I've talked to a lot of uh institutions about. What I love about your perspective man's like you're seeing across institutions in a way that I think they can learn from that's hard for them to see just in their own experiences. So I appreciate your time. I have three questions I ask everybody at the end of this podcast, so, if you don't mind, we'll throw a match now. Um. Number One, what's the best piece of career advice you've ever gotten? Be Fearless. You you didn't hesitate. Man, be fearless, love, go for it. If you see a problem, go solve it and be an advocate for that. And when you are solving problems. You're you're adding value and be fearless us in solving problems. If it if it's going to be good for your market, it's going to be good for the business. And I've never been fired for really doing the right thing for Um, for our market, so I'm fearless and unabashedly confident in that. My second closing question is always what's the best piece of advice you've gotten about consumer lending or consumer banking? I guess is when we talked a lot about today in general, but I love kind of the best advice you've got on the consumer banking front. Well, it's it's something I've been saying all day. It's you have to design for your Um, for your end consumer, and so often we think about lending and any product through our operational lens. We are missing the moments to capture more, to capture the opportunity and to capture more, about more volume, more value, yet and and more value, when when all all we're focused on is the rate, it's, to be candid, Lazy. We could be so much stronger and so much better for our market and they need us. They need us to be better and we can. Yeah, it reminds me this old siliconal saying don't ship your organ chart. Like too often the customer sees and the product and their experience our organization. We're optimized for our ORG chart and not for their perspective of what they would like to do or experience with us nets. It feels like what you're saying a lot. It's so true. All right, my last question. What is one bold prediction for the future? There will be more things that we are not anticipating, Um, more technology. Anything about that? I think. I think right that there there are going to be things that come into our space that we cannot anticipate. And we've seen it happen, I mean...

...and we've proven to ourselves that we can do hard things, we can pivot a lot faster than we thought we could, and so we should lean into that enthusiasm and that confidence and that optimism that, wow, we just made it through a pandemic. We just prove to ourselves that we can deliver in a completely digital way and serve the end consumer. Let's not go back to the way it was before. Let's lean into this idea that change is normal. It's going to happen faster and let's remember the idea that we can do it. So that's that's my my closing thought, that things like crypto and ai and completely digital service, those are table stakes and those going to be more with the advent of web three Um, all of these new things that are coming about, and so be optimistic about it. Say I can do it and let let's keep going. It's a great closing dots. Maathan, thanks for joining us. This was really fabulous and I enjoyed the conversation a lot. I'm sure the audience will as well. Thanks, Jeff. So great to be here. Upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern, all digital lending experience. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank does too. Up Starts AI lending platform uses sophisticated machine learning models to more accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than traditional credit models. With fraud rates near zero. Up Starts All digital experience reduces manual processing for banks and offers a simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking to grow and enhance your existing personal and auto lenning programs, or you're just getting started, upstart can help. Up Start offers an end to end solution that can help you find more credit worthy borrowers within your risk profile, with all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan closing and servicing. It's all possible with upstart in your corner. Learn more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your credit decisioning process and growing your business by visiting upstart dot com slash forward dash banks. That's upstart dot com slash board dash banks. You've been listening to leaders and lending from upstart. Make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe to leaders and lending in your favorite podcast player using apple podcasts. Leave us a quick rating by tapping the number of stars you think the show deserves. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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